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April 23, 2009
Excessive Noise in a Co-op?
We live in a medium-sized co-op that has virtually no soundproofing between walls and floors. Sound travels readily between apartments and the board has instituted several policies that try to mitigate this problem. For instance, we're required to have 80% of our floors covered in carpet and we have quiet hours (between 10 pm and 6 am, you can't make a lot of noise). Plus, the board sends out reminders about how to be generally respectful of your neighbors vis-a-vis noise.
For several hours almost every night and every weekend, our downstairs neighbor plays music with the bassline turned way up. She almost always turns off the music by 10 pm (the appointed quiet hours), but from approx. 6 pm to 10 pm 3-4 nights out of the week and most of the weekend, it's extremely unpleasant to be in our apartment. Our floor shakes to the beat of her music and all we can hear is bass. We've tried talking to her about this, but to absolutely no avail. I should also say that, for some unknown reason, she doesn't like us at all. Literally from the day we moved in, she's been unpleasant and unfriendly, despite our regular attempts to establish a neighborly relationship.
I think it would help things quite a bit if she just turned down her bass. I don't think the volume is excessively high, but the bass is driving us nuts. Even though her music is not being played after quiet hours, do you think this constitutes an unreasonable amount of noise? Should we go to a higher authority (eg the board)? Just wondering if others out there have had a similar experience and what they've done to maintain their sanity, while recognizing that we live in cramped quarters in the city.
Comments
If you've talked to her repeatedly and she has refused to cooperate, then I don't see what choice you have other than a) talk to the board or b) live with it. And living with it doesn't sound like a great option.
Posted by: geekspice at April 22, 2009 9:48 PM
Did it ever cross your mind that the music might be an intentional expression of her dislike (as you write: "for some unknown reason, she doesn't like us at all. Literally from the day we moved in..."). For all you know, she might not even be home between 6 and 10. The sound has to be traveling to her next-door neighbors as well as to you (they might even be her intended target). Have you tried asking a neighbor what they know about her, or what they know about the previous owners of your apartment? Might give you some insight into what's happening.
Posted by: vinca at April 22, 2009 10:46 PM
She's not wrong. Either put with it or move.
Posted by: pattunia at April 23, 2009 2:51 AM
Have you asked her to raise the speakers off the floor or space them away from the walls? Even a few slivers of corrugated cardboard would mitigate the resonance of the bass.
Posted by: Arkady at April 23, 2009 10:00 AM
Is she actually a shareholder in your co-op? If not try speaking directly to the shareholder that she's renting from.
As a last resort, call 311. In my personal experience the police have come out and the music stopped indefinitely.
Posted by: StuyIvy at April 23, 2009 10:04 AM
You are entitled to your peace and quiet at all times.
One, ask board prez over to listen to the noise.
Two, gently remind them that it's their responsibility to enforce terms of proprietary lease which will include copy saying something to effect of first sentence.
Three, you, neighbor and board member sit down to discuss impact noise is having on your health and quality of life.
Four, only if that fails, start with the lawyers, cops and other stuff that will raise overall animosity level.
Good luck!
Posted by: Johnny at April 23, 2009 10:25 AM
"She almost always turns off the music by 10 pm"
Sounds to me that although this person is living in accordance with her own values, and not yours, she is being respectful. The co-op has quiet hours and your neighbor respects them.
She probably doesn't like you because you moved into the building and get all involved in peoples business. This is a disease. When I'm listening to loud music, that's what I want to be doing, not chatting with annoying neighbors.
You own? So, why don't you soundproof your place? You moved into a building with people likely above, below, and on both sides of you. This requires patience and tolerance to live happily.
Posted by: streber at April 23, 2009 10:26 AM
Soundproofing has to be done on the side making the noise to work, not the offendee's side of the wall.
Arkady is right. It's probably not even about volume but the way vibrations carry through the building. We have experienced that in both our old coop and in our house. I never understand why somebody won't just invest in proper speaker stands and get the friggin speakers off the floors and away from the walls. Who actually enjoys knowingly bothering people? Plus the sound quality would be much better for her on her side.
Posted by: traditionalmod at April 23, 2009 11:40 AM
You sound like a great neighbor, streber!
Posted by: Oleg at April 23, 2009 12:26 PM
streber -- are you my downstairs neighbor??
I try NOT to get involved in people's business unless absolutely necessary (i.e. it's affecting my health and well-being). And I should add that this particular neighbor has been EXTREMELY involved in our business. The day we moved in, she came up asking (at 8 pm) when we would stop making noise. I had no idea about the lack of soundproofing and had no idea we were making ANY noise. From that point on, she came up or left a note about once a week about our perceived "noise." Often, she claimed we were making noise at a time when we were asleep! Every time we drop something on the floor (which is rare), she bangs on her ceiling. So, streber, don't make assumptions about who's involved in whose business. I'm trying not to create waves, but I'm tired of being miserable whenever I'm in my own home.
Posted by: jxc187 at April 23, 2009 12:42 PM
I agree with those who suggest that streber is mean-spirited. Living in NY does not mean that all one's responsibilities as a neighbor and generally respectful human being go out the window.
Posted by: ollie45 at April 23, 2009 1:06 PM
that sucks jx, but after your last post it makes it obvious she is doing this to get back at you. im with what someone else said, who likes to annoy other neighbors? my first apt in nyc my downstairs neighbor left a card with 50 bux in it asking me to get a smaller stereo or headphones. i felt weird taking it, but i did. then i just didnt play loud music anymore. i had no clue he heard it. the people in my building now have loud sex for hours! that is even more annoying, but funnier i guess
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 23, 2009 1:09 PM
I should add that I think it's important that we all try to figure out a balance between living our own lives/expressing ourselves in the way that we choose and being respectful of those around us since we do live in a city, in very tight quarters. I don't find comments like "put up or move" to be very helpful, nor "she probably doesn't like you because you moved into the building and get all involved in peoples business." Whenever questions about noise come up, I'm always shocked by how many people respond with, "this is the city, get used to it." Sure, we're all used to street noise, sirens, people arguing outside our windows in the middle of the night, etc, etc. But, people need to realize that not everyone likes the same music they like; not everyone wants to hear a toddler running back and forth, back and forth all day long (I write this as the mom of a toddler); not everyone wants to hear top volume arguments every night of the week from their neighbors; not everyone wants to be awakened every Sundy by booming speakers at 8 am from the church/mosque/temple next-door, etc. There needs to be some balance. I respect my neighbor's love of loud music, but I don't think it's right that she's able to play it every night of the week, for hours at a time (even if she is respecting the quiet hours), which means that I can't ever have any peace and quiet in my own home (which is what I like). I'd really appreciate some more measure in people's responses. Thanks.
Posted by: jxc187 at April 23, 2009 1:12 PM
PitBullNYC -- getting back at us for what? Simply living upstairs from her?
Posted by: jxc187 at April 23, 2009 1:22 PM
do you wear shoes in your home? if you do, try taking them off. see if she responds.
sometimes it's the small things...
Posted by: Ringo at April 23, 2009 1:35 PM
Bummer. Quiet hours don't mean you can be obnoxious and consider all other hours 'loud' hours.
If she won't take responsibility and simply turn down the bass/ tweak speaker positions, and if the board won't do jack, then yup. You are screwed and have to 'get used to it / you live in the city / what do you expect / blah blah'. Or:
That's when you have to become what you hate and retaliate. Every time she is blasting you out, you must put your speakers facing the floor, bass cranked to eleven. Damn I'm glad I live in a house and not an apartment.
Posted by: MAT at April 23, 2009 1:39 PM
Actually, I'm a pretty good neighbor...
I can play drums at 2 in the morning and my neighbors won't ever know it because I do it in a sound-proofed a room.
"Soundproofing has to be done on the side making the noise to work, not the offendee's side of the wall. "
traditionalmod clearly knows nothing about soundproofing. Believe me, when I am in my soundproof room, I cannot hear my neighbors.
...and if you think I'm mean spirited, you're wrong. I just understand that 1) many buildings are poorly built and let too much 'normal' noise transfer and 2) good fences make good neighbors.
You can go around trying to change everyone and getting yourself upset, but guess what? Some people make noise (babies, people wearing clogs, people who like loud music, etc) ... and to a certain extent they should be allowed to. That's why you have 'quiet hours', which your neighbor seems to respect.
It's called being pragmatic. If you did a bit of work to your place, you will _never_ have this problem again and you won't have to worry about trying to change people who live differently than you.
or do what 'MAT' says... start a tenant war over nonsense.
Posted by: streber at April 23, 2009 3:06 PM
Streber, proper soundproofing in jxc187's case sounds like it would mean pulling up all the floors in her apartment, or at least part of the floors, to install soundproofing material. I had a similar problem in my apartment with a tenant who was a musician. This was next door, and he ostensibly played in a soundproof room. Still, the noise came through loud and clear. Soundproofing our wall, which we were told by an expert contractor may or may not be totally effective, would have cost upwards of $7,000. This is not money everyone has, especially not these days. You're absolutely right, "good fences make good neighbors." But fences can be prohibitively expensive in NYC.
Posted by: ollie45 at April 23, 2009 3:39 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting neighbor to be more considerate of each other. I grew up in apartments and have had neighbors who didn't give a damn about how loud they were. What's the big deal about being considerate? It's no fun to be sitting at home, trying to read or relax and the neighbor's blasting loud music for hours. It isn't nonsense- there a reality to living in apartment buildings. A certain amount of noise is expected- people wlaking in heels on wood floors, loud arguments (so long as its not all the time or they're throwing the furniture around)- its a function of living. But blasting music, especially turning the bass way up- that's beyond the pale.
Posted by: bxgrl at April 23, 2009 3:41 PM
I'm incredibly sympathetic. In our current apt, every waking hour we can either hear the TV or the vibration from the bass of the radio of our downstairs neighbor. (They leave it on when they leave the house.) Sound is/was used at guantanamo for a reason - it's maddening after a while. And when you own it's not as easy as simply moving, and effective soundproofing is not cheap - you'd pretty much have to put down a new floor.
I don't have a solution, but if you find one, please post it here. Best of luck.
Posted by: squaredrive at April 23, 2009 4:00 PM
So you are making too much noise, your neighbor has retaliated, and now you want to know how you can shut her up?
Did you ever consider not disturbing her in the first place?
Posted by: mopar at April 23, 2009 4:01 PM
mopar- where the heck did you get that from????
Posted by: bxgrl at April 23, 2009 4:07 PM
It may be comforting to think that people only get what they deserve, but sometimes people are, in fact, simply at the butt-end of inconsiderate behavior.
After all these years I'm still surprised by how people turn into judgemental a-holes when they have the anonymity of the internets....
Posted by: squaredrive at April 23, 2009 4:40 PM
We don't wear shoes in the house and never have. We've never had a party. We have carpeting and padding over more than 80% of our floors. We never play loud music (or even have the capacity to.) Some have commented that our neighbor is "retaliating," but there is nothing to retaliate for, other than her made-up complaints. Honestly, I think she just doesn't care about being a good neighbor, clearly doesn't care about us, and so does whatever she wants.
Posted by: jxc187 at April 23, 2009 4:58 PM
jxc187- can only wish you the best of luck. I hope the Board takes your problem seriously.
Posted by: bxgrl at April 23, 2009 5:03 PM
Peace and quiet is an expensive commodity in NYC, as are most things.
I find it amusing that there's clearly a deficiency in the way your building has been built:
"I had no idea about the lack of soundproofing and had no idea we were making ANY noise. From that point on, she came up or left a note about once a week about our perceived "noise." Often, she claimed we were making noise at a time when we were asleep! Every time we drop something on the floor (which is rare), she bangs on her ceiling."
...but instead of addressing that, you are trying to change your neighbor.
Yes, soundproofing your place will be expensive, but it's your building that is deficient... (and perhaps your belief that just because you want peace and quiet, everyone does).
Start by gifting your neighbor with some speaker isolation stands, and neoprene rubber blocks...
@squaredrive: you can't find a solution? Soundproofing is a well-understood science.
Posted by: streber at April 23, 2009 5:06 PM
"We don't wear shoes in the house and never have. We have carpeting and padding over more than 80% of our floors."
I didn't know that. That should pretty much take care of the issue -- at least as much as it can be taken care of. The only other thing is: Do you have highly discordant hours? Are you awake when she's sleeping and vice versa?
Other than that, I can't imagine what the problem could be. Have you talked to her, tried to find out what she is hearing, maybe by going to her place and replicating the noise in your place? Also, have you told her sometimes she claims you are making noise while you are sleeping?
Posted by: mopar at April 23, 2009 7:37 PM
I have written this before, but here goes: "Nuisance" laws: noise being just one of the nuisances.
You have done the correct thing by talking to your neighbor first, because if you just go to the board, they will ask, "did you speak directly to your neighbor and try to solve it that way?" Yes, you have, jxc187, many times, so many times, that the neighbor is becoming upset. And the offending noise still hasn't stopped. Perhaps the posters who suggested moving the speakers are correct and that is all that would be needed, and the neighbor may have no knowledge of this.
By now neighborly feelings may be stressed, so that the board may have to investigate if speaker correction is the mere cause. Anyway, there is no excuse for being loud until 10 PM, because that is the so-called "legal" time. You are entitled by law to peace and quiet all the time. People have to rest to be able to put in a full day of work the next day, to think, to be, and to create.
So now is where the "Nuisance" statutes will help you. Noise is a nuisance, fights, drug sales, etc.. A nuisance comes into your home without the person actually entering through your door. If they come through your actual door, that is trespassing. Go to Google, type in the search box in the middle of the screen:
nuisance abatement
Once you type that in, you will see other choices appear, such as "laws". Take it from there. Your board must do something for you. If the problem cannot be solved in a "soft" manner, then you must get hard on someone, and find out who that responsible someone is in a Coop. BTW, we lived in a pre-war building and never heard any noise at all. It seems your house has a flimsy problem.
Our neighbors play loud music when they do drugs. It seems they like the bass then, and really have no awareness of much of anything.
Posted by: BklynSoFar at April 23, 2009 7:51 PM
streber, i could recite you a bunch of stuff about the science of sound and acoustics, but, at the end of the day, I really don't feel that inadequate. Knowledge of the science does not equal solutions that are without major expense or trade-off. If i'm wrong on that, I and others would have a great deal of gratitude for your knowledge, please share.
Posted by: squaredrive at April 23, 2009 8:15 PM
mopar -- We're really not making any noise that's out of the ordinary. I think, simply, that she is a bit crazy and can't stand hearing any noise coming from anyone else's apartment (except her own, obviously). Otherwise, I can't understand it. We are so quiet, really value quiet, and have never, ever had issues in any other living situation. I practically tiptoe (in socks!) in my own apartment because I know how much she reacts to noise. If I drop something, I cringe, because I know she's about to bang on her ceiling. We've tried everything with this woman, from talking directly to her, to being kind to her when we pass in the halls, to talking to friends of hers (who are much more friendly than she is), and so on. I have no clue why she is so unfriendly -- I suspect she would be this way to anyone who lived above her. It's a shame, because it's made living here highly unpleasant and caused a great deal of anxiety. In fact, we're trying to sell, and, if we do, I think we're going to have to leave the city because I'm so afraid of ending up in the same, uncomfortable situation in another apartment!
Thanks for all the thoughts from everyone. By the way, what are speaker isolation stands? Would they help isolate the sound to just her apartment?
Posted by: jxc187 at April 23, 2009 8:24 PM
jxc187, your neighbor sounds not very nice. I'm so sorry.
On the slightly positive side, after about a decade of noise problems with neighbors in various buildings, I finally have new neighbors who are very quiet. It's wonderful. And they're young and play music and wear high heels -- go figure.
Posted by: mopar at April 23, 2009 11:15 PM
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