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April 1, 2009
Do I Need an Architect?
I recently bought a condo. In the original floorplan, the condo is a two bedroom. The former owners took the dividing wall down and now its a one bedroom. We would like to put the wall back to its original spot. Condo board says that this will require a building permit. Problem is that we are on a limited budget and don't want to spend lots of money on architects, etc. I am not even sure whether the taking down of the wall by the previous owners was done with a proper permit. In essense I have floor plans for what I want done (since it's just the old floor plans). I don't have the floor plans for what's currently the situation (but they are easy to produce - just delete a wall). What I need is some advice on how to do this on the cheap...
Comments
temporary walls supposedly can be friction fit (no building) and are meant for tenants, but maybe worth looking into. Otherwise you're sol if you can't convince your board.
http://www.roomdividersny.com/
http://thewallpeople.com/home.html
Posted by: cmu at March 31, 2009 3:35 PM
Building partitions within a space requires a permit if you want to do it legally. It doesn't matter that there might have been a partition there before in any way -- generally speaking, the DoB concerns itself with proposed work, rather than what might have been there at one time.
You might think that this is an excessive amount of paperwork for a partition, but these rules come about from
-a review of the safety of the partition. Three years ago, two firemen were killed by a fire where they could not escape from the room because the tenants had installed an illegal partition blocking their escape route. The owner of the building was recently convicted of criminally negligent homicide for this:
http://tgllaw.com/new-york-law-blog/accidents/145/negligent-firefighter-death
-a review of light and air requirements. The city does not want conditions where people are living in bedrooms with no windows, so there are requirements for this as well.
The city's requirement that this be filed by an architect or engineer has to do with insuring that there is a state-licensed party on the hook for the work. That's why an architect is going to charge an amount to file even if you've already done the drawings. It's not a work-based fee, it's a responsibility, liability, and insurance based fee.
Posted by: Smokychimp at March 31, 2009 4:31 PM
OK, so does anyone know an architect who would be willing to do this for a reasonable price (like hundreds as opposed to thousands of dollars)?
Posted by: CuriousGeorge at March 31, 2009 4:38 PM
I would start by asking the management company, if you have one. Then look in The Cooperator, the condo and co-op newsletter. They have lots of ads and an online resource.
I would expect, however, to pay a few thousand dollars. The city needs certified plans.
Posted by: Bolder at March 31, 2009 6:57 PM
you are fucked...no architect will risk his license by certifying plans for a few hundred bucks...in addition you are looking at thousands for licensed and insured contractors..if you get away for less than 5 grand, you are lucky...
Posted by: eman1234 at March 31, 2009 8:45 PM
I am confused - the partition was taken down illegally and you need an architect to restore it to its original place?
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at March 31, 2009 10:13 PM
eman1234, tell me where to send the check and what your fee is for making my day
Posted by: jp2 at March 31, 2009 10:30 PM
If you are simply replacing a partition wall that was already there, and if that now-missing wall appears on the original stamped plans filed with the DOB, then I think it is ridiculous for your board to ask you to hire an architect to "resubmit" this work.
It would be reasonable for the Board to require that you use licensed contractors, but I don't see the need for the architect unless the wall doesn't appear on the original plans.
Posted by: appoggiatura at April 1, 2009 6:43 AM
Despite the fact that you're only removing a wall, you'll need a set of drawings that shows plot plan, key plan, zoning district, construction classification, work description. a demolition plan, a proposed plan, a wall type, and a verification that you're not messing with fire egress or other life safety issues...i can't see even a cheapo architect (or engineer since one could do the filing too) charging less than $1500. maybe you should post something on craigslist...or contact expeditors since they may know a cheapo architect...but then you're on the hook for the expeditor fee, at least $1000. plus you need an acp-5 report...@500. don't see you doing the whole filing side of this for less than 3k.
Posted by: Espresso at April 1, 2009 10:10 AM
It is reasonable for the condo board to require building permits - if anything goes wrong, if someone complains, or you are caught doing work without a permit, that can affect the whole building. It can mean fines for the condo, and it can also mean that no new permits can be pulled until your violations are straightened out. It would also just plain suck if you got a violation for correcting work that was done illegally in the first place.
But given the level of work involved, you may be better off hiring a code consultant (expediter). Most code consultants work with architects who can do the plans that the consultant files. The code consultant can also tell you if you truly need a permit for this work, if there is any potential for problems filing to correct something that was done illegally in the past, etc.
Posted by: WBer at April 1, 2009 10:12 AM
Oh pooh - don't listen to these ninnies. It's a one day job. Find a carpenter here and have him build the wall. It literally is a nothing project - should cost you no more than $1000. SO crazy to even CONSIDER filing with the DOB for this.
Posted by: gkw at April 1, 2009 10:24 AM
this is why many people might consider that house yesterday on 2nd street to a condo. If your own house you don't deal with nonsense like power hungry controlling boards.
Posted by: Petebklyn at April 1, 2009 10:28 AM
The problem is that the law is the law. You need to file with DOB to build permanent new partitions. A lot of people do it illegally, and a lot of people don't pay their taxes either, but the right thing is the right thing. If you can't afford it right away put up bookshelves. But you may as well call a Court Street architect/expiditer firm such as Schnall & Schnall, they will do it for you and then you will have a kosher job, you won't have to worry about jeopardizing your insurance or the condo's insurance and you will avoid stop work orders and fines and other problems that could arise if you do the job cowboy-style without the proper permits. Onwership is all about responsibility.
Posted by: sam at April 1, 2009 1:04 PM
"Oh pooh - don't listen to these ninnies."
Except of course the coop board will fine the resident when they discover the wall. Hello.
Posted by: mopar at April 1, 2009 1:09 PM
Although it is comical that they might fine a resident for having a wall that was in the original plan.
Posted by: mopar at April 1, 2009 1:10 PM
But what if the wall was illegally taken down? How will DOB know if there is an inspection. Their plans show a wall and a wall there is.
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at April 1, 2009 4:02 PM
the dob will know it because the condo board made the demand of a permit..you will certainly get a $1500 fine for work without a permit if you proceed..the second fine will be $5000
Posted by: eman1234 at April 1, 2009 8:22 PM
So the common sense thing is to persuade the board to get a licensed, insured contractor to put up the wall. In a day. The probability of DOB finding out is infinitesimal.
But then, common sense is a quality little to be found nowadays.
Posted by: cmu at April 1, 2009 8:35 PM
Wow. Tough crowd here. I'm an architect. You do have some options. One would be to find out what is shown on the plans that are on file at the DOB. If the previous owner who took down the wall did so illegally, the plans would still show the wall. This may get you somewhere but I still kind of doubt it. It may at least get you around filing plans and needing an architect. Maybe a contractor could pull a permit based on the plans already on file. Or just have a contractor do it. As said above, the DOB will (most likely) never find out. The second option, and what I would recommend is put up a "temporary" wall. Get creative with how it attaches to the wall and the floor. Have a carpenter make some double-sided casework. Call it a piece of furniture, whatever. The idea is have something made off-site, maybe in a few pieces, and all you need to do is have it brought in. Like a couch. But wall shaped. Call it a shoji screen.
Posted by: wilso26941 at April 1, 2009 10:40 PM
you legally must file an application to do the work dividing the room. thats all the board is worried about. if you have wall shown on approved plans, you will have no problem getting it approved but you are still required to get a permit to do the work and pay the city its fees. the funny thing is if the inspector gave you a violation for taking the wall down illegally, his remedy would be to return the premises to its legal condition OR legalize the one large room . that means they would tell you to put the wall back up. still you need to put it back up as it was approved. whether its '1hour rated' or not needs to be signed for (responsibility) by an architect in the building departments eyes.
other than that...
its only the board you need to please. you would never get in trouble with the building dept once the work was completed.
if you can't get it done for less than 1k, call me.
(or if you need to see if the plans show the wall)
Posted by: dexpediter at April 4, 2009 11:22 AM
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