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April 3, 2009

Problem With RC Tenant

I own a house with a rent control tenant, yes I know, who thinks he can do whatever he wishes and does this...among other things! After discovering that he hands out, and has been handing out for years, front door keys to whomever he likes so he does not have to come down the one flight to let his people in. I changed the front door lock. You know, the lock with keys where you need a card that authorizes you to make a copy. I gave him two keys as required by law, thinking at least that not everyone had keys to my house. So now he puts one key in the mailbox and hands out copies of the mailbox key to who knows. After informing him about jeopardizing the security of the building, etc, etc, I was told “F” you! Not my problem! While I try to figure out how and who can help me get these people out of my house, can anyone suggest a way for me to short circuit this S.O.B. and protect my wife and kids and MY property from strangers in the hall.

Side note; Any housing lawyer recommendations would be appreciated as well. I have evidence, pictures and recordings as backup. Yes, its bad.
Thanks!

Comments

Have a buzzer installed

Posted by: SenatorStreet at April 2, 2009 12:58 PM

give him written notice and try to evict him for cause. it might not work but it would probably force him to behave.

Posted by: slick at April 2, 2009 1:06 PM

Are people actually loitering in the hallway or you just don't like the guy's friends?

Posted by: Karka at April 2, 2009 1:14 PM

I sympathize with you. I have a problematic rent control tenant also and there really is not much you can do. Just for kicks or if he wasn't happy with something, my RC used to leave dead water bugs the size of my shoe in front of my door and denied ever do it. I've since put up a wall and door to prevent him from coming upstairs to my apt. All i can do is make sure I submit for a rent increase every year and hopes that he leaves soon. There's a good service that will help you with all the paper work to increase his rent. Its called American Property Rights Assoc 718 891 9262. Its crazy how difficult they make it for landlords. We are taking on the role of subsidized housing for the city.

Posted by: lilytang at April 2, 2009 1:18 PM

The buzzer is a great idea, but why not change the mailbox key to a controlled duplication key too?

Posted by: corolla at April 2, 2009 1:44 PM

I would take the key out of the mailbox and play dumb.

Posted by: cornetor at April 2, 2009 1:52 PM

yes, take the key out of the mailbox. If he tells you he lost it, give it back to him (as if you had a new copy made for him). do this each time he leaves it in the mailbox. Assuming you check the mail each day, problem solved!

Posted by: cornetor at April 2, 2009 1:54 PM

And make him pay for an additional key each time. Those aren't cheap.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 2, 2009 2:02 PM

get rid of the mailbox and put a mail slot in the front door. throw any of his mail at the apt door step.

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 2, 2009 2:02 PM

Mutual respect is all I'm really after, but I own and pay for the this, MY house.
I bought the house with him in it and was willing to give him what he earned. Give and take, I've been in Brooklyn since 1976, I didn't run here from Manhattan last week.

The buzzer, at my expense, gives him the ability to sit and make uninformed convenience choices to let anyone into MY house. And believe me, he will. Now that may be his unalienable right as a NYC RC tenant, but it undermines the security of my family and my other tenants personal property. I have been extremely civil to him and the situations created by his actions risking my families safety - Have I said that enough yet?

I do not loath him, his friends, family or the strange people in MY house at odd times, just his, I exist therefore I am entitled attitude and his total disrespect for property he does not own.

I am trying to have him evicted but he has the shield of NY state on his side. Here's hoping thousands of dollars spent to live in MY house pans out in the end.

I will investigate a new mailbox lock option, thanks that is news to me.

And thanks, Lilytang for the phone number. we are doing that at least.

Posted by: Longstreet at April 2, 2009 2:18 PM

No mailbox here. All the mail is delivered through the gate underneath the stoop. In fact I actually cut out a small section to accomodate small parcels.

That said, if he's the one who picks up the mail at that location first you may run into another problem with your mail!!!!

Or there are other options like a mailslot in the door.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 2, 2009 2:23 PM

How much are key card locks?

Posted by: tybur6 at April 2, 2009 3:04 PM

Have you had YOUR house since 1976? Was the relationship always this bad or is he just now starting to piss you off?

Posted by: rh at April 2, 2009 3:21 PM

OP said he bought the house with RC tenant in place.

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 2, 2009 3:34 PM

Buy a USPS-approved mailbox at Lowe's or Home Depot. You can install it yourself, but you will need to make arrangements with the Post Office to complete the installation with a keykeeper outside your building and their own universal lock on the indoor mailbox. The PO has a one-point delivery policy and actually prefers these indoor boxes. (One-point means that the carrier delivers only to a mailslot, indoor box, or box or gate under the stoop, and not to a combination of those). Your tenant will have a key to his own mailbox, but that's vastly different than unlimited access through the front door. BTW, be very careful about implementing various suggestions to change locks, deny access, opening the tenant's mailbox, etc.—many are outright violations of law and will bite you badly in housing court.

Posted by: vinca at April 2, 2009 3:35 PM

vinca's right -- be very careful about the kinds of self-help you resort to. If/when you end up in court, it might hurt you. Courts typically frown on self-help in thsi area. As good as the collective advice can be here, in your case I wouldn't rely on it. Consult an attorney who specializes in the area, who can tell you exactly what self-help steps you can and can't take, and how best to set up the eviction (or whether to pursue other strategies). Dont' take a short-term gamble that might mess up a long-term strategy. Also, read over the lease (if there is one) with an eye toward tenants' responsiblities to safety and security of the proeprty. There might be some useful language somewhere.

Posted by: slopefarm at April 2, 2009 3:48 PM

vinca - can you explain how buying a USPS approved mailbox will solve his problem? He still could make a zillion and one copies of his mailbox key for his friends to gain access to that 2nd apartment key kept inside.... i like DIBS idea > take the 2nd key, play dumb, and keep charging him for the "lost key".

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 2, 2009 3:50 PM

vinca does have a point...there may be legal issues opening his mailbox. However, there may be issues that the post office has delivering mail when there is a key in there as well.

Yes, all of this is a pain in the ass but I wouldn't want people coming in and out either.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 2, 2009 4:03 PM

BoD: The USPS-approved box I'm talking about might be familiar to you from large apartment buildings (rows of boxes, most often aluminum or gold-colored). They're also available configured as only 3- or 4-unit boxes for small multiple dwellings. You install them in your vestibule—i.e. only people who have keys to the front door can access your mailboxes, and a tenant giving his friends a copy of his mailbox key won't be tantamount to giving them a copy of the front door key. If you're not familiar with the USPS keykeeper system, it works like this: they install a small box outside your front door that holds your front door key. Your carrier opens the keykeeper, opens your front door, and replaces the housekey in the locked keeper. The key to the *keykeeper* is a USPS-restricted key, same as the one they use to tilt down the indoor mailboxes. Neither you nor your tenant will ever own a copy of that USPS key. You might like DIBS idea, but if the situation is as contentious as OP describes, I doubt that you or OP would like to face the mail tampering charges that could follow from employing that strategy.

Posted by: vinca at April 2, 2009 4:21 PM

I would think that his disregard for the keys could be a legal issue as well. Isn't there a law that landlords are responsible for the security in a building? Since he keeps undermining it, you may have something a lawyer can help you with. Or possibly you can take him to housing court. But no matter what, I can't imagine he has any legal right to simply keep making copies of your keys- that endangers you and your other tenants. I know it is very difficult to get rid of an RC tenant but there was a case years ago with someone like this and I seem to recall the judge evicted the tenant. They may be rent control but they still aren't allowed to consistently break laws or leases.

Your best bet re the mail is what dave suggested- have them toss it under a gate or such where only you have access and you distribute it. Or one box to which only you have the key.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 2, 2009 4:27 PM

vinca thanks for the explanation.

a part of me feels like messing with the RC tenant's current system of leaving a key in the mailbox will only prompt him to keep the key in an ever more unsecure place (hello, trashcan lid?) just to be a total douche. okay fine start the eviction process, but in the meantime boost up the security of your own apartment door ....since most importantly, you feel your fam's safety is being comprimised. do these strangers actually loiter around in the hall??

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 2, 2009 4:51 PM

I would suggest having an intercom and buzzer installed...
I can't imagine how inconvenient it would be to have to trek downstairs to let family or company in.

It's your home certainly, but the tenant also has rights...
is he elderly?

I know mine won't be a popular suggestion but it seems
the installation of a simple buzzer and intercom system would solve the problem.

Posted by: bren at April 2, 2009 6:25 PM

Bren's post, as well as some others, addresses a facet of this issue which most have left unaddressed, and which I'm not inclined to address at great length either.
OP, the building is YOUR home, and YOUR property, but the tenant's apartment is THEIR home, too, and you bought the building knowing their RC status. I doubt there's a person among us who has not made copies of their house keys for friends (in case of emergency, in case of vacation, in case family is visiting, whatever). After an ongoing situation in our building that bore only a superficial resemblance to yours, the remedy we implemented was to change the front door lock and keys to the “Multi-Lock” brand which (in theory) can only be duplicated by presenting a locksmith with the original combination. The lock itself and copies of the keys are pricey. Tenants who request extra copies are required to place a deposit and introduce us to the person to whom they’re giving the copy. All parties, including the guest keyholder, sign a written form acknowledging their understanding and agreement that the key is not to be passed to other parties without notification and introduction to landlord. This form also addresses who bears responsibility for the cost of replacing a tenant’s set of lost keys, as well as replacing keys for ALL tenants should it become necessary.

Our building has an intercom and no buzzer, and that’s clearly explained to prospective tenants before any lease is signed. To the best of my knowledge, the following still governs re: intercoms: Under the city's Housing Maintenance Code and Section 50a of the NYS Multiple Dwelling Law, a building with eight or more units built *after* Jan. 1, 1968, must be equipped with a voice intercom. In addition, in buildings with eight or more units built *before* 1968, a landlord must install and maintain a voice intercom system when a majority of the tenants request its installation. If you Google Section 50a of NYS MDL, you can read the entire section for yourself. In addition, the following is an old article, but worth reading (though maybe not twice, as the text repeats itself ;-): http://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/17/realestate/buttoning-down-a-building-a-guide-to-security.html

Posted by: vinca at April 2, 2009 8:56 PM

I recommend two things. First, I would recommend installing an inside USPS mail box. I also use Multi-Lock keys for the same reason and you should have some control on access to your house. Secondly, I would form a relationship with a lawyer. I consulted with a lawyer, Marc Aronson on Smith Street when I had to deal with a difficult tenant who I inherited. Marc never attended charm school but he knows tenant landlord law and court very well. There are ways to get rid of rent control tenants -- but that may not be your goal. What you want to know is what the law says you can and can not do and how to build a case if it comes to that. Tenant landlord court is a very painful experience to be avoided, but it does protect you, assuming you do everything by the book. You should know your rights and what you need to do to protect yourself. Good luck.

Posted by: donatella at April 2, 2009 10:43 PM

will you please stop screaming "MY HOUSE" over and over with all of your posts? according to the laws that have been around, hello, for like ever, it's not just YOUR house. you bought it knowing it was a RC building. deal with it. jeez. i do feel for you tho, it must be a terrible situation, but at the same time, youre acting like owning a rent controlled house in brooklyn is the same as owning a private estate in maine. hello, it's not. apples and oranges. is he threatening? do you know anyone you can get to threaten him to get out? isnt that how it worked in the old days? just go that route. very simple and cheap. i feel like too many people are scardey cats these days to get tenants out and instead of dealing with the sitch hand-ons they instead whine about it on the internet.

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 3, 2009 9:57 AM

Yes I agree with PitbullNYC to a certain extent... it is your house however I know (being a landlord myself) that because of this tenant and the others.. you are enjoying a pretty decent financial benefit by owning this multiunit building...If you weren't then you wouldn't have done it so don't forget about that. Although I haven't experienced this situation as of yet i feel for you. Have you tried talking to the guy? You are gonna have to come to some sort of common ground in order for everyone to live in some sort of harmony. In the end as you have stated NYC is on his side...

Posted by: scarter at April 3, 2009 10:10 AM

rob, rob, rob (shaking my head in wonder). Speaking as a tenant I can tell you it is the OP's house. This is not an apartment building- this is a home they bought- rc tenant or not. They live there, they pay for it and they have the right to security. They are also responsible for the security of their building so they in fact have to deal with the situation.

But its also a very complicated situation so to ask for input is not whining, its asking for help. YOu do this all the time- you're doing it on the open thread about a gift for your grandmother.

You cannot just throw out a tenant- NYC is a tangled mess of laws especially in regards to rc tenants. This isn't an issue of getting rid of an unpleasant person, this is an issue of keeping your family and your building safe and making sure you fulfill your responsibilities as a homeowner/landlord.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 10:18 AM

Rob is actually correct. Under NYC rent protection law, it is just s much his house as your house. In fact, owners come and go and tenants often stay. I think the courts will find that the renter has avery right to have anyone come into his apartment as he likes (as long as he does not deal in drugs or prostitution -good luck proving that even if true).
You should build partitions or interior stairs to make sure that anyone visiting him cannot walk into your rooms. If this is impossible, you're stuck. The renter will always have the upper hand in the Brooklyn courts. In fact, if he wishes, he can still control the ownership of the apartment even after death by entering into a marriage of convenience or inviting a relative to move in.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 10:25 AM

Did OP say how many apartments are in the house? Does the tenant walk through OP's living space (I'm confused, sam. Is that the case?)

While the courts will most likely say the tenant can have as many people coming through his space as he wants, I think it will be a different issue because of the fact the tenant keeps making and giving away keys to them. Judges won't always be pro-tenant (I have a friend who was an rc tenant and went through this, and got evicted). Her landlord went to court to take over her apartment for himself and his family. Of course after she left he renovated the apartment and rerented it out. This was in Park Slope.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 10:39 AM

The MY house thing is a bit annoying...speaking as a landlady.

Posted by: rh at April 3, 2009 10:41 AM

I know someone who has a rent control tenant in his house.
The renter has a four-room unit. She sleeps in the "dining room" and rents out the bedroom to strangers. She pays $375 a month in rent and she rents the room out for $575 a month.
He took her to court. She got herself a free public-interest lawyer and won. It's New York, it's nuts.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 10:41 AM

sam- that's totally illegal! How could she have won?

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 10:44 AM

That's really nuts, sam.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 10:44 AM

i think sam makes stuff up sometimes when it comes to rent controlled stories. . i dont know, it's just the Raven side of my brain guessing that..

*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 3, 2009 10:48 AM

bxgirl: you are naive about the ways of housing court in Brooklyn. It is not at all illegal for rent control or stabilized tenants to rent out portions of their apartments.
As far as the courts are concerened it is their property. The owner just better provide heat, hot water, and a non-harrasing environment or risk jail time.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 10:53 AM

I suspect that you could write into the lease that its not allowed.

Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 3, 2009 10:54 AM

Its sad but you cant do much. Guy has you by the balls.

Posted by: brickoven at April 3, 2009 10:55 AM

Not that naive, sam. there is a law that a tenant may not subrent at a profit. They can subrent, yes,but they can't make money off of the landlord's property. And I believe that the tenant must get permission from the landlord to take in a roommate or to sublet.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 10:59 AM

rob.
that story is true.
I swear I did not make it up.
I have been around a while and have had experience with a wide variety of things.
I admit that there are other things I know very little about. Tattoos for instance.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 10:59 AM

Bxgrl: In this case, you’re not much different from Rob. Rather than just make your point, you’re complaining on this thread about what Rob’s writing elsewhere. OP has never written that the RC tenant and friends are walking through his personal living space. If that’s the case, I’d like to see it specified. He’s complaining that anywhere the RC tenant and friends walk in the building constitute an invasion of his space, an affront to his ownership and a threat to his security. That’s a pretty clear window to me of OP’s inability to separate the business end of being a landlord from his personal likes and dislikes, and skew the argument into a threat to life, limb, family, home, motherhood and apple pie. Tenants are not children. Landlords CAN’T set curfews, limit friends, hours, work shifts, etc. The issues are much more in your face if your property is small and you and your tenants are next-door or vertical neighbors. But that situation existed before the purchase was made.

The best thing OP can do is rectify the environment and relationship with tenant to the greatest extent possible. Alternatively, OP can dig in, roll up his sleeves and enter a dragged-out, expensive battle in housing court, fully understanding he STILL might not get the outcome he wants. As to roommates, there are very specific laws governing that, too, and they’re not about tenant’s “property rights" and they vary depending on whether the apartment is rent controlled, regulated or unregulated. Anything a landlord writes into a lease which contravenes existing law is null and void. I have sympathy and personal experience dealing with tenants who play the margins of their leases. However this issue is a bit like buying a brownstone and then complaining that the facade is frail and needs repeated and expensive maintenance. It’s only a surprise to the new owner who didn’t understand the range of issues they’d be dealing with, and who resent it to some extent. It’s was never an unknown factor for an informed owner re: owning the building.

Posted by: vinca at April 3, 2009 11:01 AM

Are you worried about the security of your personal residence or are you just pissed that the tenant seems to as he pleases?

If your worried about security, would it be feasible to install an alarm system in this situation? I realize the tenant could just pass out the code, but i'm not even sure you really would have to secure the entry door(someone with an alarm system, please cut in). However, by arming the portion of the building that you occupy, you could provide yourself a level of protection you currently don't have.

If your pissed about the behavior, i'd say get over it.

Posted by: Colonel Steve Austin at April 3, 2009 11:09 AM

Sadly, Bowl of Dicks and Sam have it right.

If you solve the mailbox problem, the key will be left in another, even less secure location. The tenant feels that it is perfectly OK to make his key available to all his nice friends, and their nice friends, and even nice friends he hasn't yet met. He's not going to change this fundamental belief.

The only temporary solution is to make entrances as separate as possible. On the plus side, market-paying tenants prefer a separate entrances.

I doubt you can get rid of him through the courts, although taking the whole space for family purposes seems to be a successful strategy. Your best bet would be to buy him out, if you can afford to.

In the meantime, while it is YOUR HOUSE, it is also HIS HOME. I understand your point, but a huffy, entitled attitude (no matter how justified) will get you nowhere. A charm offensive is required.

Sympathies and best wishes.

Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at April 3, 2009 11:10 AM

How is renting out a room for $575 in a $375 rent-stabilized apartment illegal? The tenant is still living in the apartment, so it's not a non-primary residence claim; and she's not subletting, since she's still in the apartment, so she isn't subletting in excess of the legal rent.

Posted by: talknerdytome at April 3, 2009 11:12 AM

vinca-for what its worth you don't seem to read and you totally missed my point to rob. He was putting down the OP for asking for help. You should try to up your reading comprehension before you post. You're giving me "advice" on something I neither said, nor implied. My advice to you- skip my posts- its a free country.

For another, I asked the question about the tenant and OP's space because I didn't see where the OP made it clear. Excuse me for trying to get a clearer picture but you seem to have issues yourself. Such as assuming I am saying a landlord can set curfews or anything else. It just so happens that I do know something about these things and there are still certain no-nos even a rent controlled tenant can't do.

Taking the OP to task for worrying about building security- a building he pays for and lives in, makes me wonder what the hell you are thinking. OP has every right to deal with this and protect his property and family. Unless you think buying a building with an rc tenant means you should just put up and shut up. Why you have a problem with this simple fact I don't know. But you seem to have a problem, period.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 11:19 AM

"How is renting out a room for $575 in a $375 rent-stabilized apartment illegal? The tenant is still living in the apartment, so it's not a non-primary residence claim; and she's not subletting, since she's still in the apartment, so she isn't subletting in excess of the legal rent.

Posted by: talknerdytome at April 3, 2009 11:12 AM


Rent Controlled and Rent Stabilized have some widely differing regulations.

Also, if the legal rent is $375 and she is "subletting" for $575, it is in excess of the legal rent.

Someone said it above, I believe the RC rule is "tenant on the lease can't profit from sharing the unit". Sound like this RC tenant is making a $200 profit...

Posted by: christopher at April 3, 2009 11:29 AM

talknerytome- I can only tell you what I was told the law was. Even though it is a roommate, the tenant is making a profit, and if the person she is renting to is not on the lease, he is not legal, if it is not a family member. It's not an issue of residence, its a matter of who is entitled to make a profit from their property and that is the landlord's right, not a tenant's. That's the explanation I was given.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 11:29 AM

bxgirl, lov ya and all, but please dont talk on behalf of me or bring up my name in threads. there's no point. and i wasnt putting down the original poster for asking for help. i made a point about a phenonemon where people these days dont take matters into their own hands and instead whine about it on the internets. big difference! this unsavory tenant he doesnt like could easily be ousted. just like the law is on the tenants side, the law is also on other peoples side for the most part to take things into their own hands. remember, it's nyc.. brooklyn in particular. not mayberry. people need to grow a pair.


*rob*

Posted by: PitbullNYC at April 3, 2009 11:30 AM

"So now he puts one key in the mailbox and hands out copies of the mailbox key to who knows."

You gotta love this guy.

"Have a buzzer installed"

Best solution. If not, use the full extent of the law. What an asshole. I don't know if I even want tenants anymore. I might go single-fam. If you can hack the loss of rental income in the long term, maybe you apply for a C of O to combine his unit with yours. Get him out.

***Bid half off peak comps***

Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at April 3, 2009 11:31 AM

Bxgrl: I'm not responsible for the things you take personally, and you won't have the pleasure of sucking me into that debate. RC-tenant is not responsible for the things OP takes personally. You seemed to have entirely missed my suggestion to OP for securing his building. OP needs to separate the business of being an owner/landlord from his personal likes and dislikes. Is that so hard to understand? Not really. Is that so hard to implement? For many people, especially small landlords, yes it is. I wrote too quickly when I wrote about roommates and variances depending on regulated or unregulated status. The variance relates to amounts that can be charged for *sublets*; roommate situation depends on an entirely different set of factors.

Posted by: vinca at April 3, 2009 11:37 AM

rob- its a free and public blog. I'm allowed to comment on another's post. I did respond without insulting you or putting you down OR speaking for you. If you can't handle that, you have a problem, not me.

trust me I will never bring up your name or respond to you again. It's so not worth it. In the meantime- grow up.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 11:40 AM

Vinca- its pretty obvious you meant that first comment personally. You addressed it to me. I didn't miss your point- but you seem to miss the legitimacy of the OP's anxiety.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 11:43 AM


"I bought the house with him in it"

BIG mistake.

Posted by: East New York at April 3, 2009 11:59 AM

Can the flame war and the off-topic discussion about Sam's story move to the Open Thread please?

Anyone else have any advice for the OP's specific situation?

Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at April 3, 2009 12:04 PM

yeah, get a buzzer. it's a really easy solution to a minor problem. the excuse that then the tenant will just buzz in whomever is pretty weak. buzzer buildings is a pretty common situation in the city, certainly not mortally dangerous. if you are that scared of the people in your neighborhood, you might be better suited to a gated community.

first, you need to deal with the fact that this is your fault. you seriously should think more before you buy. if you don't like people walking through your building, than you shouldn't have bought a building with tenants and public space. we all know that you got the building for cheaper because of the rent control tenant. now you have to deal with the negative part of that equation.

next, you should get off your high horse. it is your building, but the tenant was there first (and you bought into that situation) and is allowed to have a life, order delivery, have friends come to his house, etc etc. I think it is pretty lame to assume that the tenant is a security risk to "the family" because his friends and acquaintances are strangers to you. Grow a pair, for sure!

I have much more respect for the landlords that discuss issues with tenants (not threaten and demand) and work out a compromise...I deal with landlords every day at work and the ones who learn how to treat their tenants like people instead of pests usually can mend most situations to their benefit. Of course, paying out the nose for a lawyer for a year of hellish adjournments only to have a judge remind you of the tenant's rights is another way to go....part of me hopes this guy has a kid with sucession rights...

Posted by: rtg at April 3, 2009 12:07 PM

A RC tenant can have roommates who pay rent. However, if the tenant charges more than their share of costs, then I believe its a violation of the lease. The tenant cant make a profit.

I'm going from memory, not research here, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, it doesnt factor in the difficulties of evicting a poor RC tenant in housing court b/c judges give them every benefit.

Posted by: slick at April 3, 2009 12:23 PM

I say, ignore all suggestions except for the ones that advise consulting an attorney who is well versed in this area of law. He/she is the only person who can give you the tools you need to deal with this problem legally and advise you on what to do so that you don't screw yourself in the end.

Posted by: InsertSnappyNameHere at April 3, 2009 12:36 PM

My story caused a flame thrower fury? I don't think so. Why do I get blamed for evberything? Rob thinks I'm just making stuff up anyway.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 12:36 PM

Join the Small Property Owners of New York -- they can help you with these situations. (www.spony.com)

Posted by: thwackamole1 at April 3, 2009 12:44 PM

Sorry -- that should be www.spony.org

Posted by: thwackamole1 at April 3, 2009 12:45 PM

rtg, you're being ridiculous. OP said he did speak to the tenant and the tenant told him to f*uck off. Now OP is looking for advice b/c tenant refuses to address what could be a dangerous situation for owner's family and his other tenants. I wonder how you'd like it if strangers had keys to your house and could pass them on to whomever? I'm sure you'd take a different tone.

OP's post didn't come off as being high and mighty, and he said nothing about his tenant ordering delivery or having friends over. Lack of building security is a legitimate complaint, whether you think so or not. Also, rtg, this is NYC, not Kansas. Do you leave your doors unlocked, ever? This is in effect what you're telling OP to do, so stop with the "gated community" nonsense.

OP, it seems the tenant has no respect for you, your family or your other tenants. No one is entitled to act like an asshole and possibly endanger others' safety. Maybe a lawyer can help you address this specific issue in the short term. Meanwhile, I'd follow DIBS advice and keep taking that key out of the mailbox, and charging them to replace it. This isn't the best way to remedy the situation, but based on what you've described, it seems the tenant will likely circumvent any other system you try to put in place.

Finally, it is against the law for rent stabilized tenants to make money off of their apartment. Years ago I rented a room in a 3 bedroom apartment in Manhattan. Total legal rent for apartment? $400. Tenant was charging me $700 for tiny bedroom, $850 to another person for larger bedroom, and living in the third bedroom himself. He got caught and when we subtenants went to court, we were refunded our rent payments minus what our fair share of $400 per month would have been, $133.33 per month each. Maybe the laws have changed since then, as this was in 1990.

Posted by: basketball_jones at April 3, 2009 12:52 PM

As long as you are operating on a cash basis and your renters cooperate, you can charge whatever you want.
You can even say they are your "guest" or your relative. If the sub-tenant likes living there and is getting a deal, why should they blow the whistle?

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 12:59 PM

OP here, I was just looking for suggestions that perhaps I didn’t think of yet, not whining, searching! Everyone has valid points to share, thanks.
Some finer points, just to make sure the horse is dead.

Yes, my property and their home, I get it, no problem.
4-family house. 4 apartments. I am the first owner to live in the building since 1940. It was a mess and I got a good price.
I have one RC tenant, here since 1960, one current market rate tenant, I occupy two floors.
In Brooklyn since 1976, owner of this house since 2006, so yes, not long.
I “did install USPS-approved mailboxes” for everyone. I did not keep copies of the tenants keys, I believe that would work against me.
I “did install an intercom system” on all four floors, but no door buzzer.
I “have built partitions” and I don’t really have to see them.
The front door does not have a lock. We are planning to replace the doors but you all know how expensive that can be, its on the list.
I am familiar with the “keykeeper” and will probably do that when I get new front doors.
I was trying to give the dude his props for surviving, I didn’t have a problem with that when I bought the building. He’s the one with the new attitude not me.

He raised his family here, his wife lives with him as does his 32 year old daughter. The daughter flies under the radar and there is no public record of her association with this house, believe it or not. We looked. She does not have a job. He is retired. They almost never leave the building.
He has all the rights entitled to him as a RC tenant, I acknowledge that and he is entitled to that.
We have not been able to find a copy of his lease in any of the NYC housing records.
He is old school and totally unreasonable with an attitude to match, being nice and civil simply does not work.

Yes, “it is a very complicated situation and asking for input is not whining.”
Correct, I am too nice and “cannot separate the business end of ownership” from the, my castle, my rules! I am trying to learn and I am learning the law is not in my favor and I am trying to engage one battle at a time, flying keys + strangers this week.
I know “there are still certain no-nos even a rent controlled tenant can’t do”, but their is a legal line I cannot cross with this particular individual. I need to be careful but I’m not ready to concede while I still have hope in finding more ammo under some rock somewhere.

Thanks to all the Bklyn’ers who took the time to respond.

Posted by: Longstreet at April 3, 2009 1:02 PM

And, I just don't understand the hostility. Some of you are very angry!

Posted by: Longstreet at April 3, 2009 1:10 PM

OP: sorry, no sympathy from me at this point. You claim to be worried about security, but it hasn't been worth the investment for YOU to secure your front doors? You don't have to replace your front doors to put a lock on them. Attend to your obligations as owner/landlord.

Posted by: vinca at April 3, 2009 1:12 PM

good luck, longstreet. It's a really difficult situation and only a good RE lawyer can tell you what will or won't work in your favor. And even then its a crapshoot depending on the judge. You might be able to do better with a mediator.

I know there are laws you certainly can't break- but there are also some an rc tenant is not allowed to break either. Hope it all works out for you.

Posted by: bxgrl at April 3, 2009 1:14 PM

Whoa, the 32-year old daughter lives with them? Isn't there something in the rent-control law that states a lease can be passed to a relative that lives with the original tenant? Could that be what they're going for here?

Posted by: BrooklynButler at April 3, 2009 1:37 PM

Forget about the RE lawyer. All they can do is charge you for nothing. But a private investigator could be useful if you think there is illegal activity going on. If not, then just learn to live with it and build those partitions to close yourself off from the tenant. Sounds like the daughter will iherit the apartment so they will probably be there after you're gone.

Posted by: sam at April 3, 2009 1:56 PM

unfortunately, bklyn butler probably just nailed it. ouch. That 32 year old daughter is sitting pretty; locked into a RC apartment occupied since 1960 (i bet the rent is way south of 700 a month) no wonder she isn't working > she won't really have to!

Posted by: bowl of dicks at April 3, 2009 2:04 PM

solution;
Get one of those combination type door locks and change the combination on a regular basis. If there are that many losers, misfits, miscreants and malefactors entering the building , this guy must be living some kind of oddball life style with transient friends, these lowlifes certainly don't have the brain power or the inclination to remember the combination so easily. Especially if it is changed on a regular basis, say, every 6 months.

Posted by: Legion at April 3, 2009 2:24 PM

Have you every had serious trouble with any of these "hall people"? I rent and live on the top floor of a brownstone and I've been trying to get my (mostly very nice) landlord to put in a buzzer for years! If your tenants are older, it does not surprise me that they don't want to run up and down the stairs. It's not clear from your initial post if these tenants are doing anything illegal or if their friends are threatening in any way. You only bought this place a few years ago and you don't like his attitude. Sound to me like you really want him out and you are simply trying to feel out if you have a case.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at April 3, 2009 5:00 PM

Oh yeah, and it does seem like the daughter is living there in hopes of keeping the apartment after the parents are gone. I don't think she had to be on the lease to do that, but someone correct me if I am wrong. I'm pretty sure that if she shows that it was her principle residence for a certain number of years, that would be enough.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at April 3, 2009 5:04 PM

the daughter definitely has rights to legal tenancy under rc law...just accept it and try to get along with the real issue , which is income and class disparity...

Posted by: eman1234 at April 3, 2009 6:06 PM

If you need to go the lawyer route, I'd recommend Susan Cornicello. She was recommended to me on a tenant/landlord issue, but the other party called her (and hired her) first. I'm on the other side now and I think she's top notch.

Posted by: kdllk at April 3, 2009 10:19 PM

Sam, if you cannot get her on tenant law, you can get her on taxes. Did she pay taxes from $575/month?

Posted by: bobjohn at April 4, 2009 12:45 AM

Longstreet -- I agree to keep diaries -- it is called “contemporaneous” evidence, and I think admissible in court. I know you may be worn out already, but you may go for the “nuisance” factor.

There are many good landlord and tenant books, you can Google them. Try the ones that emphasize “nuisance”. Just an idea, but because you are ultimately responsible for anything that goes on in your building, you may get the other tenants to support you because their safety in also in jeopardy. I'd get get the rc people out, if possible. Research the “nuisance” factors, use whatever you can, get these people out, then implement the other safety issues people have stated above. Build a case first, get the people out, then change your house – buzzers, doors, mailboxes, whatever you want.

I have a couple of specific books in mind but don't have access to them right now. I can look for them then post again for you if you are still checking this thread.

Posted by: BklynSoFar at April 5, 2009 6:54 PM

Longstreet, here are the two books:

1. “Every Landlord’s Legal Guide”
by Marcia Stewart and Attorneys Ralf Warner and Janet Portman

2. “Nuisance Abatement Guide” by John H. Campbell
www.cdri.com

Go to Google, put in “Nuisance Abatement Guide”, and you will find many resources.

Excerpts from both of thise books are online by searching Google.

One thing I meant in the above comment is if you fix everything first it may weaken your case to get the people out. Given the situation, though, you may not be able to wait. Good luck !

Posted by: BklynSoFar at April 5, 2009 11:53 PM

Thank you BklynSoFar for the resources, I will definitely tap into these. And thank you for a helpful and civil response.

Posted by: Longstreet at April 6, 2009 9:43 AM

Longstreet, you are welcome. I wonder if these tenants are doing some minor drug trafficking. You may not recognize the signs as many people, at first, do not. Your tenants seem to have more "friends" than is average. These "friends" may be drug customers, and there are too many for the tenant to want to walk downstairs for. You will be in for an education as you research the signs of drug sales. Get in touch with some type of community help group that will detail these "signs" for you. Then you may be on your way to getting them out. I encountered this at a house where a relative lived.

I wonder what else your tenant is putting in the mailbox besides the keys; or doing some type of exchange, i.e. drugs, and/ or money. The tenant bad behavior and language may also be a sign. I wonder if he has always behaved that way.

This web site came up on Google, when I typed in "Nuisance
Abatement Guide" : www.times-standard.com/ci_7392374

You may be more successful in searching for a Brooklyn-specific site than I was. Going to the Courthouse or police station may yield you the information you need, such as a pamphlet for *recognizing drug use in neighborhoods*.

Posted by: BklynSoFar at April 6, 2009 7:33 PM

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