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March 26, 2009
Where to put the kitchen?
I have read many versions of this conundrum while reading Brownstoner over the last couple of years. Here is my version. I would be grateful for insight from people who have done something similar as to whether or not this is an unworkable idea.
Basically the issue is this: We have a 16 ft wide 4 story brownstone which is currently configured as a triplex and a garden floor rental. The kitchens right now are one in the back room of the rental - about 16' x 11' with garden access, and one on at the back of the parlour floor for the main house.
The location of the parlour floor kitchen basically manages to take up the entire back of the house - the only really decent sized room that we have - while leaving it underutilized and without enough counter space. Originally we were going to move this kitchen to a better location/layout on the parlour floor and keep the rental as a rental. However, long story short the DOB has slapped a rider on all 'significant work' requiring us to replace our water main and probably sewer as part of the job, and we can't afford to do this and do the renovation we had planned.
My current thinking is (since the rental won't bring in much income in the neighbourhood we are in, and I am too tired to add being a landlord to my other obligations) to make the garden floor kitchen our main kitchen - replace fixtures and add more counter space but without moving any plumbing, and make the parlour floor a big living space where my 2 year old can run around. The bedrooms are on the top 2 floors of the house, so I was thinking of leaving a kitchenette in place on the parlour floor, hidden behind doors along with a wall of storage for all our other stuff, that could be used for snacks and breakfast, while the main meals could be prepared downstairs.
The pros are that we could have a much better kitchen, and potentially eat in the garden during the summer, we gain living space upstairs, and we would keep enough of the utilities in place that it could be converted back to a 2 family if need be. The cons are that the only dining space we would have would be in the kitchen itself, and I'm afraid that it might just be too far out of the way and we would end up snacking upstairs and never cooking downstairs.
Anyone done anything similar? Did it work, or did you find it annoying? BTW, I am not a 'kitchen is the heart of the home and the place where everyone hangs out' type of person - I actually would prefer to burn my fingers and swear somewhere more out of the way, but I'm afraid that getting people down there for mealtimes might be a challenge.
Anyway, aplogies for such a long post, and thanks for any advice anyone could give me!
Comments
If I might introduce the smallest of problems, won't you need to keep two kitchens stocked if you are eating breakfast upstairs and dinner downstairs? Two sugar bowls, two containers of milk, bread, coffee maker, peanut butter, butter, champagne, etc.
Posted by: cornetor at March 25, 2009 5:16 PM
As you've probably read here, there are pros and cons for both ways. I have seen a fair number of 4 stories with the kitchen on the ground floor and I like the idea of it opening to the garden. I will say that more often than not the parlor floor is underused, which is a shame since it's the nicest floor of the house. I'm sure there is some way for you to set up the parlor floor that means it becomes a real family room where everyone hangs out, but even if you don't like it, I find that most people hang out around the kitchen, even if there's a nicer space upstairs. But if you can make it work, a ground floor kitchen is lovely, and I understand why you'd want to go that way.
Posted by: CGfan at March 25, 2009 6:26 PM
A neighbor of ours (3 story brownstone 20' wide - used as a one family) has the kitchen on the garden level (with a high dining bar with stools around it. Kitchen takes up the entire back of the house and there is a a beautiful formal dining room in the front of the garden level. (With the table always set, the lights on low and the window shades open - its gorgeous - and since its rarely used its kind of a window open for everybody to gaze into without them losing any privacy)
The parlor floor is used as originally intended - front parlor is a formal living room and rear parlor is home entertainment / den / hang out room.
Bedrooms are all on the top floor.
If you don't need the rental income its a beautiful way to configure it.
Posted by: rickintheridge at March 25, 2009 7:10 PM
We have our house set up as you describe. We love having a big kitchen that opens to the garden, and our family room is set up in the back parlor. We use both spaces and have found that our parlor floor is not a museum, but a wonderful expansive space that we enjoy every day.
Posted by: dt at March 25, 2009 9:01 PM
there are two things i'd want to consider if i were you. 1) if you aren't a "kitchen is the heart" kind of person, why would you want two kitchens? two kitchens = two places were food is stored, where vermin can get involved, where you have to clean regularly and, yes, where you have to keep duplicative supplies...2) not sure what kind of setup you have now, but with a 16-footer, even a kitchenette is going to take up a lot of your width in your parlor space. it may wind up feeling like a kitchen most of the time anyway, unless you're super-vigilant. (and super-vigilance with a 2-year old seems...tiring?) if i were you, i'd liberate your parlor space from kitchendom of any kind, but leave (and cap) any lines you can that you'd need if you decide to convert back to a triplex-and-rental.
Posted by: i disagree at March 26, 2009 10:21 AM
Don't get this question for such a major decision when:
-you say you don't entertain in the kitchen (so what's the issue);
-you can't spend what, 5-7k on redoing the water/sewer lines but can forgo 1.5+k/month of rental income AND can pop for 2 kitchens;
-you haven't read Susanka's book "The Not-so-Big House".
-2-year olds should run around in the park, not at home or you'll regret it when company comes over ;) (joke).
Personally, I think having kitchen on a floor different that the living space is great if you have a cook and a butler.
Posted by: cmu at March 26, 2009 10:35 AM
we have 2 kitchens on the parlor and ground floor. the parlor is our 'main' kitchen. however the ground floor is our family/play room and has a small kitchen that gets alot of use. the rest of the parlor is formal dining and living rooms. we do have 2 sets of pots & dishes. water in both fridges etc..i love the set up and i think you will get alot of use out of the ground floor. we also kept it this way for resale value. it could easily be split into 2 seperate apartments.
Posted by: bkny at March 26, 2009 10:46 AM
For what it's worth, any time my husband and I look at property we're always disappointed when there is no kitchen on the parlor level (we are "kitchen is the heart of the home" people, tho).
I would put the family/kiddie space on the garden level (who wants them running around above you?), and mack out your parlor as kitchen/dining/front sitting area. Put stairs/deck/whatever you can off the kitchen and down to the garden to eat alfresco.
Garden apartment can be restored at will.
Posted by: feral at March 26, 2009 11:16 AM
Thanks for all the input, and I'm really glad to hear that quite a few of you think it would be workable. And just to be clear, I was really thinking of just replacing the current parlour level sink with a smaller one ($70 from Ikea?) and keeping a microwave and undercounter fridge, just so that we could have tea and coffee, heat up some oatmeal, and make the yoghurt smoothies that we have every morning.
Cornetor - I do think it would be a bit of a pain having 2 sets of supplies, but I was only thinking tea, coffee, cereal and maybe milk for the upstairs, so milk would be the only perishable. We keep champagne in every room in the house :-)
Cmu - I agree about living small, and that was why we originally wanted to keep the two spaces separate, but it is configured so badly it is unlivable, and as I mentioned, the DOB requirements have made it too expensive to move things. We could only get about $800-900 in rent for the apartment, and we'd have to do a fair bit of repair work before anyone could move in - so I'm afraid at that rent it would take forever to even pay for the work we had done, let alone leave a cushion for repairs. The house is 40 ft back from the street. We had to replace the water main when it burst and it was 12K. The sewer is deeper and at the back of the house with no access to get any kind of machinery through so we were looking at another 15-30K for that, so yes it was a lot more money.
Posted by: zil at March 26, 2009 11:37 AM
I'm a big fan of kitchen at the back of the parlor, with dining in the middle and formal/informal living room at the front.
Depending on what/how many floors you occupy bedrooms either below or above. I prefer the 3 fam layout with garden rental, 2 owner occ floors with rental on the top. 2 fam in too rich for my blood but you can alwayd take over the top floor when the kids/money start rolling in. :)
What does everyone think of the layout on the Brooklyn This Old House?
Posted by: Adam Dahill at March 26, 2009 11:51 AM
Personally, I would put the kitchen on the floor where you think you will do most of your living. Its not apparent which floor that is based on your post but Im sure you already know the answer.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at March 26, 2009 12:11 PM
Adam - i hate the TOH layout! i hate the fact that they put in a spiral staircase. i think the sprial is ugly and out of character with the house. I would have preferred they take the 2 top floors if they needed the additional income. I do think the parlor is the best floor in the house and i understand why an owner would want it for themselves but the spiral staircase is just awful. i wouldn't ruin the integrety of a brownstone like that.
Posted by: bkny at March 26, 2009 12:39 PM
...or live on the garden and parlor and rent the top two, so you can have the parlor and backyard exclusively...
Posted by: bkny at March 26, 2009 12:42 PM
FWIW, We have our kitchen on the parlor floor of our 20' wide brownstone. The kitchen lines the back, with a large bay window over the sink that overlooks the deck and garden, which sits at the window line of the bottom floor. We get a lot of praise for it, and some friends completely remodeled their similar house to create the same layout.
A common alternate construction puts the kitchen on the side of the back and opens up the back wall with glass doors -- very beautiful but often a little skimpy on the kitchen.
The bottom floor, even when it opens to the garden (which mine does not) is usually the darkest, most depressing floor in the house. People who put their central living space down there are usually sorry. Right now our bottom floor is being used for an office and storage, but once the little chicks are older, it will likely be used for a playroom/den as well. Or, if the economy tanks, will be reconverted to an income-producing rental. It has a god-awful kitchen, world's ugliest bathroom, and poor light. But we never had trouble renting it! You might really want to keep that as an option.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at March 26, 2009 1:29 PM
brooklyn chicken - sounds lovely and completely agree with you. especially about the potential rental. in a pinch we can rent our ground floor b/c it is fully functional. we haven't had to but just knowing the option is there is a good thing.
Posted by: bkny at March 26, 2009 1:50 PM
bkny- I agree with you on the spiral staircase. I looked at a bunch of 2 story lofts that had the spiral staircase and all I could imagine was busting my ass falling down those stairs. I didn't like that they painted the exterior and that they put down vinyl floors in the rental kitchen. What was up with the faux wood painting to? Other than that it looks as they did a nice job. I'm happy for them.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at March 26, 2009 5:34 PM
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