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March 19, 2009
Is this my fence???
I currently own a Brownstone in BK that is attached on both sides. The curious thing is that my neighbors to the left and my neighbors to the right both claim that the fence that separates our backyards belong to me. Is there any easy rule of thumb for this (ie. the fence to the right/left is always your responsibility?) If not, is there a painless way to figure out which fence belongs to me? Both fences need to be fixed up and I don't want to get duped into fixing both or the wrong one.
Thanks everyone
Comments
if the fence is on your side of the lot line, it's yours.
if it's on their side of the lot line, it's theirs.
if it straddles the lot line, it's a shared responsibility.
Posted by: z at March 18, 2009 3:07 PM
Get a survey to prove it. But with attached brownstones, the lot line should be pretty straightforward.
z is correct.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 18, 2009 3:10 PM
Thanks Z. Seems easy enough but how is the "lot line" defined for attached brownstones? (Apologies in advance to all that deem that a stupid question---nubie homeowner here)
Thank you
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 3:12 PM
Thanks dibs...where can I obtain a survey, from the dob?
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 3:13 PM
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/bc26s3.pdf
§[C26-75.0] 26-233 Maintenance and repair of protection fences and retaining walls.—Unless otherwise provided by special agreement between them, the owners of adjoining properties shall be responsible jointly for the proper maintenance and repair of partition fences and retaining walls dividing their properties; and each such owner shall be responsible for one-half of the costs of maintaining and repairing such fences and retaining walls, except that where the replacement of a partition fence removed by one owner is necessary for safety, the owner removing the fence shall replace it at his or her own cost.
See also: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/retaining_walls.pdf
And “fence” at: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/violations/bh3-27-147.shtml
Posted by: vinca at March 18, 2009 3:14 PM
Thank you vinca. Now I'll have to break this to my neighbors that they'll have to both pay half to fix the fences...this won't be fun :)
Thanks all
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 3:17 PM
A survey would be something you get independently at a cost of about $1,000 or so...can't remember.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 18, 2009 3:34 PM
Telling your neighbors that they are liable for half the cost is one thing. Actually getting money from them will be another.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at March 18, 2009 3:38 PM
:) Boerum_Hill, that is exactly my concern. I'm sure the fences will no longer be a "major problem" now that I'm not the only one that has to foot the bill.
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 3:42 PM
How long ago did you buy the place- you probably had a survey done by your mortgaging bank or lawyer before you closed-
My survey makes it very clear which fences are mine and which are not-
Also- before you start arguing with the neighbors- ask them if they have the survey that show which side of the lot line the fence is on-
If it turns out it straddles it- then you all have to worry about fixing it. If it's on your side, you need to make sure it's not in danger of falling down and that it meets code for height and material. Any other aesthetic concerns are not really 'major problems'. Then again, if you're getting complaints from both sides, you might have an interest in smoothing out the neighbor relations.
Posted by: Park Place at March 18, 2009 4:15 PM
Park_Place, how does your post relate to Vinca's post above? From that post it seems that if the bldgs are adjoined, then the costs have to be split 50-50.
Thank you
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 5:23 PM
If both fences appear to be the same then I would say they are yours. obviously your neighbors would not by chance erect the same fencing.
Posted by: modsquad at March 18, 2009 5:33 PM
Hi modsquad, actually the fences are completely and totally different.
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 5:39 PM
You probably had a survey done when you bought the place. I have a similar issue with my backyard and to my dismay found that the worst fence is clearly shown on my side of the property line. The little string of x's is the fence.
Now if I can convince him that it was a shared fence that is now simply falling into my property......
Posted by: renomandru at March 18, 2009 6:44 PM
Thanks renomandru...w/o giving up too much detail, it's unlikely that a survey was done here.
If anyone knows where to turn for this, that would be great.
My question still remains, based on the Building Code posted above by vinca, it doesn't appear to matter which lot the fence is on if it's an adjoining property and the fence divides the properties:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/bldgs_code/bc26s3.pdf
§[C26-75.0] 26-233 Maintenance and repair of protection fences and retaining walls.—Unless otherwise provided by special agreement between them, the owners of adjoining properties shall be responsible jointly for the proper maintenance and repair of partition fences and retaining walls dividing their properties; and each such owner shall be responsible for one-half of the costs of maintaining and repairing such fences and retaining walls, except that where the replacement of a partition fence removed by one owner is necessary for safety, the owner removing the fence shall replace it at his or her own cost.
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 7:12 PM
I understand that DOB has a homeowners evening every Tuesday from 4-5:30pm in the Brooklyn borough office. I have never been to one, so can't say for sure. It might be worthwhile for you, or you and your neighbors to attend and ask about your fence. To confirm that info in advance, see link for borough office address/number: http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dob/html/contact/contact.shtml
Posted by: vinca at March 18, 2009 7:57 PM
Thank you vinca, very helpful
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 18, 2009 11:12 PM
If it's your fence, then you can tell your neighbors you're just taking it down. Maybe then they will volunteer part ownership.
Posted by: Mrs de Dough at March 19, 2009 10:21 AM
We took our fences down when we moved in, because they were in danger of falling down. Everybody liked the openness so much that we ended up leaving the fences down and having separate yet shared yards. It's been great! Very conducive to neighborliness.
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at March 19, 2009 10:29 AM
Spare yourself the aggravation of trying to come to agreement with your neighbors over choice of fence and division of cost. Do it yourself but first insist that each neighbor (provided they are the owners of the properties) sign a simple document stating that the fence is entirely on your property (odds are, this alone will make them reconsider). Then, if they sign, suck it up and pay for the whole fence. Then assert ownership over the fence - both sides of it - for the next ten years (clean and paint it occasionally) - then, in ten years, file an adverse possession action to secure legal ownership of the extra few inches you just took from your neighbors - and then, paint the side of YOUR fence facing their property hot pink. The universe is expanding slowly, why shouldn't you?
Posted by: MaxOthermoxx at March 19, 2009 10:31 AM
Question, once you have expanded the extra inches and painted their side of your fence pink, could you then attach some flag poles and plant hangers (to your fence) that protrude even deeper into their space? At least paint a mural of your choice on the fence.
Posted by: werner at March 19, 2009 10:41 AM
Please double-check re: survey, because if you have a mortgage, either the mortgage company or the title company did a survey, or have a survey they consider up-to-date. If you don't have the document, ask the lawyer who did your closing. That will answer the question. Take advantage of the DOB open house, because the use of "retaining wall" in the Building Code makes me wonder if the fencing referred to is intrinsic and not aesthetic. Good fences do make good neighbors, but handling this too aggressively (tho I'm sure MaxOthermoxx is [mostly?] joking) will make your tenure in the house unpleasant. Good luck!
Posted by: lf2009 at March 19, 2009 10:46 AM
Outside of the yours/mine/who pays debate, my memory of the "old" days is that Brooklyn properties were separated by chain link or by nothing at all. Though not a fan of rusted link, I have even greater distaste for the solid barriers that prevail today. Air movement not only affects the comfort of outdoor living spaces, it's also critical to garden health. Two articles worth looking at are: http://www.finegardening.com/pages/g00127.asp
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gr_general_info/article/0,2029,DIY_13847_5709836,00.html
Posted by: vinca at March 19, 2009 11:31 AM
It sounds like if it is a "partition fence" or "partition wall" then the cost is shared. I assume this means defining the lot line. However, if the fence is on your property, then it would still be yours. I guess you and your neighbor could both have fences on your respective sides of the property line.
This may be naive, but can you see an obvious line in the brick or coating on the back of your houses? Where the fence attaches to the buildings, or where the closest fence posts are, is it clear that they are on one side of this line or the other?
Posted by: Heatherie at March 19, 2009 11:31 AM
In regard to the building code vinca posted I would guess it will be interpreted that "dividing their properties" means IF it's straddling the lot line. If it is on your side of the lot line I don't think this applies.
Posted by: boofer at March 19, 2009 11:40 AM
Thanks guys for all of the comments.
bk_chicken: i'd love to remove the fence completely, this would be great for backyard parties BUT unfortunately one neighbor has two overgrown pitbulls in the backyard that make this impossible.
There is an obvious separation line in the brick but the fence appears to be smack dab in the center of it.
Chain links aren't too expensive so I'll probably just be the bigger neighbor and pay for everything without breaking down the building laws/codes to them.
Posted by: bk_bstoner at March 19, 2009 11:51 AM
I think that if you do put a new fence in, the goal would be to pick out what you really want to look at for the next bunch of years. That and I would question whether you'll want to see your neighbors pit bulls through chain-link, barking and drooling while you grill out on the patio.
If you are paying for it, it would be better for you to make sure that it is on your side of the property line, esp if you get something nice looking. If it straddles the line, your neighbors can complain about your choices and if you end up getting something nice, paint their side some god awful color if they wish. That doesn't sound like a big deal but the easiest way to maintain a fence without having to spend time in the neighbor's yard is to re-stain your side and then remove the panel, flop it, rehang and re-stain the second side. You won't want to deal with their paint job if all you wanted was a stained fence. Just a thought...
Posted by: kensington gal at March 19, 2009 1:56 PM
Where I live, one neighbor has a chain-link fence, another side+ of the yard has a formerly nice wooden fence that has gone to ruin, and an investment-property owner has a massive privacy fence that juts across the corner where our property boundaries are not aligned. One day, when myself or one of my side-by-side neighbors is flush, we’ll talk about what we’d all enjoy as a replacement. The reason we’ll talk is mostly because we value the friendliness of being neighbors, we talk to each other by habit, and each one of us uses our garden differently. Another reason is that if I pulled up my neighbor’s rusted chain-link fence, they’d lose the grape arbor that tells more than 50 years of their family history. If I stuck a tall privacy fence in without speaking to my neighbors, they’d both lose a lot of our limited sunshine. I cannot wrap my brain around the waste of time, energy, and money embodied in the concept of installing, maintaining, or decorating a fence selected for the purpose of offending or impinging on one’s neighbor. Below are a few more links where you can read about neighbors and fences, good-neighbor fences, and fence law. Enough said from this quarter:
New York Times:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E03EED9133EF930A3575BC0A9659C8B63
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E0DF133EF937A25750C0A96F958260
The Cincinnati Enquirer:
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2000/04/14/loc_fence_rules.html
Nolo.com:
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/pg/1/objectId/98DFFB2A-27D8-45C5-BF5B4E8128A695A1/catId/D0B308BB-D553-438E-94E8D66498A911D7/213/243/267/FAQ/
Posted by: vinca at March 19, 2009 3:43 PM
vinca: thanks for your comments about and against "privacy fences." They make narrow yards smaller and darker. Chain link ain't pretty, but it's not as weirdly anti-neighbor as these castle walls. City living may not really be for everyone.
bk bstonr: if you put up a new chain link yourself, make sure it's squarely within your property lines. And morning glory makes a rapidly growing and very pretty privacy screen.
Posted by: lf2009 at March 19, 2009 4:38 PM
I wasn't suggesting the OP put something up to tick off the neighbors. Sounds like OP's neighbors are tired of looking at a busted down fence. Vinca, I'm not you-I want to look at what I want in my backyard and one of those things is not the neighbors rusty chain link, arbor or not. That also includes the piles of plastic kid stuff and the giant pit bulls. I'm not into telling them how to live-they're free to do as they wish and I'm happy for them. Since many people today don't consider what they neighbors have to look at in their yard, I chose not to look at it. For some a garden is a sanctuary and it's a way to have your own small space. And my garden's doing plenty fine with our privacy fence. It's been garden of the day. It'll be more impacted by the giant building just erected next door, not a fence that conforms to DOB code. As much as a little more air flow might be nice, it's nicer not staring at the cars that will be parked next to my lot. There is no one "best solution".
My neighbors in back thanked us for the privacy fence we put in to replace the broken down one we inherited because it was a nice quality cedar and they got the benefits of something more attractive without paying for it. All I'm saying is if the OP's neighbors are insisting that the fence be fixed but won't pay for it, then OP gets to be the one to decide what he wants as a fence. Their attitude doesn't sound like they are interested in meeting in the middle.
Posted by: kensington gal at March 19, 2009 4:39 PM
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