Forum
« To buy now or not to buy now? Electrical connection question - »
March 3, 2009
Changes in Bed Stuy
Bed Stuy is a beautiful place but long time residents have said it was in need of some changes for quite some time. Now with some of the current and past changes (gentrification) unwelcomed by many, can we have some reactions in regards to what the community might need. For the people who are considering moving to Bed Stuy, mabey even gentrifying it, can we instead of telling them what we dont want (whole foods,starbucks,etc) can we tell them what we do want? What kind of changes would be nice? I think very specific reactions would be helpfull to those who might not understand or those who might think people in Bed Stuy are trying to keep all outsiders out. There is obviously a big difference between realators trying to make money and break up a pre-existing community and people being priced out of thier neighbourhoods and would like to move to Bed Stuy for all its appealing attributes..... and mabey even contribute to the community.Id really like to direct the comments at both. Thanks so much everyone!
Comments
Where to begin??? First, the definition of gentrification needs to be dissected. For the most part, it focuses on the housing stock and means "The restoration and upgrading of deteriorated urban property" then there is always that lurking additional inclusion that it happens through "middle-class or affluent people, often resulting in displacement of lower-income people." Bed Stuy was gentrified by the existing property owners who made those streets what they are today and made sure that crime was pushed out of the neighborhood. It began long before property prices began to rise and "unwelcome" people started moving into the neighborhood. As far as "realators (sic) trying to make money and break up a pre-existing community and people being priced out of thier neighbourhoods," I don't think realtors are trying to break up the neighborhood. Houses change hands because of two primary reasons: owners die and owners decide to move elsewhere. In the latter case they are usually walking away with a huge gain on their property and , I suspect, are quite happy to do so.
But lets get to what I hope is the crux of your post. Since you seem to be a long time resident, what do you want??? I think we're on the same page here...more quality and reasonably priced food options (do you know how much of a ripoff the bodegas really are??) and more nice restaurants. i don't want Starbucks only because I don't like their coffee and would rather see mom&pop shops continue to flourish (however bad their selections oftentimes are) but I'm not a coffeeshop person. You'd be surprised about Whole Foods...where they compete with bodegas they are probably cheaper. Do you know that your Super Food Town on Atlantic is better than most Manhattan D'Agostinos, gristedes and the majority of the Food Emporiums? It is.
I was in the process of opening a higher end food store but we put it on indefinite hold because of the economy and because the financial backers became nervous. One of the big problems was the shape of the commercial properties available in the neighborhood. They are in decrepit shape, the landlords don't have the money to put into them and the rents being asked are too high for the neighborhood and what a business will support. So they stay vacant!!!!
I hope this has been helpful and we can talk some more. I hope I didn't start off on the wrong foot but your initial use of the word "unwelcome" irked me. Neighborhoods don't "belong" to anyone.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 3, 2009 8:49 AM
Great post!
Yes I think that the dictionary .com definition of gentrification is accurate:
the buying and renovation of houses and stores in deteriorated urban neighborhoods by upper- or middle-income families or individuals, thus improving property values but often displacing low-income families and small businesses.
Like it or not this is exactly what happened in Bed-Stuy. And there is a generational divide as to whether these changes are "welcome" or not. I've been in Bed-Stuy for about 15 years (give or take) and I bought my home in the 90's for less than 200k. It has more than tripled in value since then. Sounds great for a homeowner BUT it's terrible for a "working class" young adult that has grown up in the neighborhood but can no longer afford to buy because they are now priced out.
DIBS...instead of the high priced supermarket how about buying that entire strip of Fulton Street (between Troy and Marcus Garvey I believe) where there's nothing but a bunch of homes that have been boarded up for over 15 years. The kids in the nabe have no source of local entertainment. I'm sure a roller skating rink or bowling alley would work wonders (of course, not trying to tell you what to do with your cash :))
Posted by: frugal1 at March 3, 2009 9:39 AM
i think food options is key. we need basics,like a mike's diner. some place that is not specific or fancy. where you can go for breakfast, lunch, dinner or take out. i think Peaches is great but it is a soul/bbq joint. which is a specific taste.
i love food town and can always find what i'm looking for. i don't think we need a whole foods.
Posted by: bkny at March 3, 2009 9:40 AM
Hello Daveinbedstuy.I think your post is very helpfull.When I used the word unwelcome, I was making an obsevation about a paticulair atitude shared by many people.I was not speaking of my own attitude.I actually love whole foods and alot of other places that some people might not want to see in a neighbourhood like bed stuy.My point is not to have a negitive outlook on "gentrification".Infact it would be nice to move away from that term and really look at what a community like this needs.Your right, a neighbourhood doesnt belong to anybody,but some people think it does belong to them.So Id really love to hear what they think Bed Stuy needs in terms of community both pre-existing and future-wise.But your responce was greatly appreciated and i think quite helpfull.
Posted by: brooklyntookit at March 3, 2009 9:41 AM
"Brooklyntoolkit" you are correct, some residents DO feel that the changes are unwelcome so that was the correct word to use.
Also, WHY is gentrification a bad word???? It accurately describes a particular set of events. I think folks shouldn't get so sensitive to the point where we have to use code words to avoid offending people.
Posted by: bootsey78 at March 3, 2009 9:51 AM
frugal1...you're probably right. There are probably a lot of things that the neighborhood needs for kids and teenagers. I don't have any myself and probably haven't focused on that as many others have. I think what people are trying to do with the "Stizzy space" on Lewis would be great...some kind of day care/recreation for very young kids.
ON another idea.....When I go into a new business that opens in the neighborhood I'm always struck by how sparsely and oftentimes poorly it is merchandised. I think maybe the Shops On Lewis Ave (SOLA) group should try and get some sort of a consultant that can be made available for people starting small businesses. A classic example was that organic market that closed on halsey. many of the coffee shops oftentimes don't have anything there as well. I think the guys at Oz Hardware are getting it right.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 3, 2009 9:55 AM
Ooops that post didn't address your actual question...
I actually think that the older residents of Bed-Stuy have been and are doing a fine job at sprucing up the nabe. Crystal (bookstore), Josie (red boutique) and the other SOLA owners really took the lead with this.
I think a Diner would be great also. But I guess I'm the only one that hates SuperFoodtown. I think they're a bit overpriced. I think that Pathmark on Atlantic Ave is a bit better IMHO.
Posted by: bootsey78 at March 3, 2009 9:56 AM
Hi Bktk, yours is a good question. How do you make your needs known, rather than just sitting and waiting for things to happen? I don't really know, aside from spending money in the small businesses that I wanted to support on Fulton and elsewhere, e.g. the African People's Farmers Market. The Bed-Stuy Restoration Corp might be worth talking to: http://www.restorationplaza.org/. Let us know if you find some other sources.
Posted by: meerkatz at March 3, 2009 10:57 AM
Frugal, I believe that stretch of Fulton was supposed to be the "Gateway Condos" site. http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/01/two_affordable.php#comments
Have no idea what's happening now, but there have been steps towards demolition...
Posted by: Heatherie at March 3, 2009 11:00 AM
I think one of the things that does get longtime/older neighborhood residents riled is the perception that gentrifiers believe they are coming in to rescue the neighborhood. And often they do ignore or are unaware of the many community groups and organizations that have been in place for years. Many people in the community have done so much with so little, so when you come into a neighborhood like Bed-Stuy or Crown Heights, you probably won't see all the underlying work residents have done for themselves. I've seen it in Crown Heights. It wasn't the gentification of the neighborhood that began the landmarking process - it was residents, some of whose families have lived here for generations. Despite redlining, bad press, community problems and basically being forgotten by the city except as a dumping ground for shelters, these neighborhoods have thrived.
So they aren't filled with trendy shops, or fancy groceries. They're great neighborhoods, with good, hardworking, houseproud people whose work is generally overlooked. If they don't go out of their way to seem welcoming (and I have never had that problem) maybe its because of the attitude that their neighborhood somehow is nto up to snuff and "needs" to be upgraded. And this is not to say no one wants nice shops and amenities, less crime and more trees- they most definitely do. But I think it has to be hard to look around and see all the hard work in stabilizing, and all the community support, and 30 years of House tours get blown off by new people coming into a neighborhood and simply not seeing it.
And I agree with dibs about Foodtown- especially after years of shopping in the "supermarkets" in Brooklyn Heights. Try a Gristedes if you want to talk overpriced. I almost passed out at the bill for a small bag of groceries.
Posted by: bxgrl at March 3, 2009 11:30 AM
While there may be a little gentrification on certain blocks of Bed Stuy, I have to say, to my outside's eye, it still looks like a solidly minority neighborhood. I think one really can not describe an area as "integrated" or "diverse", if the non African-American population is less than ten percent.
It is sad that at this late date certain communities such as Bed Stuy still do not enjoy basic neighborhod amenities available to most middle class community in the city or the suburbs. My hat is off to outsiders like Dave, who have the guts to invest in the neighborhood and then to live there and contribute. I think it can't be easy. Most people would never do it, especially if they have school-age kids. So in a way the fear of rampant gentification may be a bit premature. It takes a special kind of person to move into a community where one is perceived as the "other". A special type.
Posted by: mcKenzie at March 3, 2009 11:38 AM
personally i dont think it takes a "special" type at all. it always comes down to just wanting to pay less money in rent or buying a cheaper house. but i could be wrong there maybe types with other motives. i dont say it here because it would be slightly an absurd thing to say, but i consider myself a park slope DE-gentifier.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 3, 2009 11:43 AM
rob
LOL! a de-gentrifier. I believe it!
But seriously,in terms of Bed Stuy, the houses are not that cheap. I mean compared to the ridiculousness of Park Slope (or the Orthodox Jewish community in Gravesend) yes, but not when compared to nice older commuter suburbs. $650,000 can still buy you a very nice house in many lovely communities with nice schools a trainride away. Especially as many of the century-old houses in the City are just falling apart at the seams and require enormous investment AFTER you buy them. I have been looking and it seems impractical. I don't see the onrush to buy in Bed Stuy, especially now, with the economy in the tank.
Posted by: mcKenzie at March 3, 2009 11:53 AM
brooklyntoolkit, your post is well intended. I appreciate the balancing act between what the neighborhood needs and what will not be too off-putting to current/long-term residents.
That said, I think Bed Stuy wants what every neighborhood wants - "quality services from quality vendors." I think most people would agree, new and old residents alike.
There is really a two-part answer to your inquiry. I think the first part is what types of services the neighbors need (and will take advantage of). The second part, that was not directly discussed, is the attitude through which the services are delivered.
On services...Bed Stuy is a neighborhood like any other. We are a people with pets, children, disposable income, hair, appetites, wardrobes, etc. Good businesses that speak to these are welcome. Pet stores, children's clothing, furniture, salons, small restaurants (with good food), clothing stores, etc. I am personally in favor of smaller businesses, but I also understand that established retailers like Starbucks attract people to explore and sometimes open more businesses in gentrifying neighborhoods. I saw this first hand in Clinton Hill with Connecticut Muffin on the corner of Myrtle and Clinton. The challenge will be that as/if these businesses come they may not be well supported in the midst of a recession. This is a global issue not specific to BedStuy.
On attitude...The distinction, however, with most gentrifying neighborhoods is that the quality and price of services must come at an intersection of approachable and attractive. For example, it can be insulting for some of the long-term residents to walk into a new establishment that does not offer a range of price points. This sends a "newcomers only" message. On one hand, they may be averse to or unfamiliar with the products offered, and have a cultural jolt at the introduction. On the other hand, stuff is just 'too damn high' and they know they are not the intended audience. I'm not suggesting that you open a business as an act of commuity service (I'm not that crazy). I am saying that you cannot ignore the customers around you. Nice does not have to equal high-priced. Affordable does not have to equal downmarket.
More on attitude...The rub with those who are anti-gentrification is not that they are opposed to quality services. Who wouldn't want them? Most just do not appreciate being treated like outsiders in a community they built and have fought to preserve. New business owners and residents need to insert themselves consciously into the pre-existing fabric instead of taking an insular "all about me" approach. You will find that that is usually at the crux of the anti-gentrification argument, not the types of services or the demographic of the people that come.
So as you think about new businesses, honor those who have been there. Meet the people at the church on your corner. Attend a community board meeting. Know the kids who play outside your door. Cuss if you have to. Just don't show up with your own plans for change.
Posted by: cmontgom at March 3, 2009 11:57 AM
I admire that about dave too. (I'd admire him more if he would open a nice little cafe in MY neighborhood though :-). I deserve it dave! The Great EVLL had me shoveling snow yesterday morning!
I don't know, rob. I think it isn't just about money- to buy a house and live in it yourself in any neighborhood is a serious investment in how you want to live your life, not just how much you want to pay for it. I think a lot of folk love old houses and love the idea of saving some old beauty. I came over to CHN to visit friends and fell in love with it.
Yes, I do think some people move in with the idea of "saving" the neighborhood and that's a tough attitude for anyone to deal with. I happen to love my neighborhood- its comfortable and friendly and unpretentious. I love Nostrand and Fulton- they're fascinating and I love the differnt shops and food places. If I want fancy i can hop a train or a bus- but don't knock the food places. They're good, just no frills.
Posted by: bxgrl at March 3, 2009 11:58 AM
I lived in Bed Stuy for three years, and went to Pratt so I lived in Clinton Hill for about four.
There are many great ways for a new neighbor to integrate themselves into the community of Bed Stuy, which I still haven't found in my new area of Bushwick. I've made many friends with other transplants, but in Bed Stuy, I was able to connect with the original community. That is one of the reasons BS is a great neighborhood for gentrification. There are roots within the community, but they aren't a closed system. I think there is a huge advantage nowadays because of the internet community.
Also, McKenzie, I don't think of myself as an "other." My moving to BS was the same as most of the other people who had lived there for so long, we both needed to find a less expensive alternative, and were able to give up the amenities for the price. We created the things we lost in the move. For some, looking for a home meant being able to go out to eat every night, for me, it means having lots of space. That's what I found in Bed Stuy, every other great thing I discovered was just a plus.
Posted by: ALinBWick at March 3, 2009 12:05 PM
Cmontgom, your entire post just ought to be the quote of the day!
mckenzie, your observation that, "It takes a special kind of person to move into a community where one is perceived as the "other". A special type." is interesting. Most of us who live in a country where we've been deemed a "minority" all our lives find it rather normal to be in situations where we are perceived as "the other." Nevertheless, we survive and, sometimes, we even flourish!
I don't think one must be a "special type" to live the life of the "other." But moving into a community where you must learn about and respect the culture, history, social mores and ethos of the majority who have preceded you -- before trying to call all the shots and expecting immediate self-serving change -- can be hard for some. This would be the case in any minority/majority group dynamic, whether staid or influx and regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Finally, if it takes "special types" to weather the challenges and rewards of diversification, then here's hoping that those "special types" prevail.
Posted by: Brooklynista at March 3, 2009 12:19 PM
These are all great responces.Cmontgom,your responce was very insightfull as well as alinbwicks and bootsey78s posts.Alinbwick if I may ask a question...you seemed to have a great experience in Bed Stuy and Clinton Hill.Why did you move?Also Bootsey78 you listed some great businesses owned by older bed stuy residents.Does anyone have anymore for those who may not know?Or any business or attractions worth traveling(train or otherwise)to Bed Stuy just to visit.i.e. examples of things Bed Stuy might already have here or there that we could use more of?
Posted by: brooklyntookit at March 3, 2009 12:32 PM
I still think a lot of the anti-gentrification argument is just gut "us agaisnt them" human emotion. And yes, also racism and reverse racism.
I don't think one needs to over-intellectualize it.
As humans, we are hard-wired to distrust and dislike people different than ourselves. It is basic human nature that is difficult, though not impossible, to overcome.
Posted by: mcKenzie at March 3, 2009 12:41 PM
BTK--I moved for a great reason: it's where my boyfriend is and we decided to move in together. But, whenever I'm ready to buy, it will most likely be in Bed Stuy. I miss the community and being near Pratt. I really love the option of having a nice picnic in the sculpture garden. Maria Hernandez has been a good substitute, but it's really not the same.
Posted by: ALinBWick at March 3, 2009 1:05 PM
I like this discussion. So far it seems very level-headed. McKenzie, it really does not take any "guts" at all to live here on a friendly, stable block full of longtime residents. And I do have school-age kids. As far as what Bed-Stuy needs, I think cmontgom said it best: new businesses have to hit that sweet spot of catering to both old and new residents. We could still use a nice basic diner or two. Super Food Town is great, and Restoration Plaza has a lot of potential if they ever get around to redeveloping it to be more accessible to foot traffic. I have a lot of love for this community. I do wish there was not quite so much litter on the sidewalks, and more landmarking to protect some historic blocks that are currently vulnerable.
Posted by: StuyMom at March 3, 2009 1:56 PM
I really, really wish Saraghina would open. Did any of you have that pizza when he opened one night and gave it away??? Best pizza ever. It will be hard to get a seat in there someday!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at March 3, 2009 2:58 PM
Me too, DIBS!
And yeah, Stuy Mom, it doesn't take any guts to live on my block. I lucked out.
Posted by: vanburenproud at March 3, 2009 3:29 PM
As someone who lives in Bushwick and is sbuying in Bed Stuy, all the area seems to need is more retail, period. Bushwick is crowded with shops and they're not expensive. Bed Stuy seems practically empty.
Posted by: mopar at March 3, 2009 3:33 PM
mckenzie - i live in bed stuy, have school aged children and it doesn't take any guts at all. you must an 'outsider' or someone who preceives this as a bad, black neighborhood. your comments are worthless because you obviously have no clue about the neighborhood and have never been there. personally we don't need people with your attitude moving in!
Posted by: bkny at March 3, 2009 4:46 PM
zoinks, bkny, that's a lot of assuming going on!
Posted by: vanburenproud at March 3, 2009 5:06 PM
On Broadway at the Halsey J stop there are seven restaurants, and literally six of them offer fried chicken. I notice the train is empty too. I think there just aren't that many people living there.
Posted by: mopar at March 3, 2009 6:16 PM
I love all discussion about the special type of people we are and all that but I want to respond to the OPs post. As a house proud resident over in South Stuy I would like to see:
1. The Slave Theater restored or reused in some way
2. The Armory turned into a rec center or at the very least see the city's plan to make it an intake center derailed (see my other posts for ideas)
3. I'd like to see a mexican restaurant and a bagel shop
4. I'd like to see business owners on Fulton SUPPORTING each other and keeping the street clean like they do in SOLA
5. I'd like to see less fast food restaurants
6. I'd like a place to hang out and get a glass of wine
7. I'd like there to be more take out and delivery places
8. More garbage cans
9. Mail boxes!!!
10. More trees
I could go on but I figure this is a start.
Posted by: HomeSweetstuy at March 3, 2009 10:29 PM
I really enjoyed your list Homesweetstuy.Now this is good info.I love to hear specifics....and if I may stray(slightly)off the topic for a moment....I certainly would love some mexican food.It would be great not to have to travel all the way to California to enjoy a lovely mexican meal.Mmmmmmmm.....burrito.Enough about my tastebuds.What else we got?
Posted by: brooklyntookit at March 3, 2009 11:23 PM
I am so sorry that I missed most of this discussion yesterday. I think that Bedford Stuyvesant will see heavy gentrification coming in the next ten years. I like Dave could care less about Starbucks.... I have never had coffee in my life. I don't think that gentrification is a bad thing at all. I have lived in this area for a few years coming from Park Slope and Ft Greene Those areas had really good things working for them such as the economy and a lot of press.
Bedford Stuyvesant has many many of negative press and is dealing now a bad economy. I know many mostly young white couples that would love to invest in our neighborhood but it seems like every house has a issue with either the owner the title etc... Bedford Stuyvesant also needs to fix Fulton St and Nostrand (which I hear is 5 years away). Fulton Street really needs to become a great shopping district. The many hair salons and nail shops and bad signage will keep the area low rent. Fulton Street needs a major make over.... WE need more businesses where the owners live in the community.
Bedford Stuyvesant has the best housing stock in NYC but we really need make home ownership available to ALL people that take pride in our community. No more investors that don't live in the area...
Posted by: Amzi Hill at March 4, 2009 11:24 AM
Mmmmm, Mexican food! If anyone is on the JMZ, there's a great little restaurant, very casual, close to the Marcy stop, called Taco Bite. I mention it because it's on the way home if you live in Bed Stuy off Broadway.
They have all the main food groups required for life: wine, margaritas, a green salad, tacos and burritos. The bbq pork (al pastor) burrito was the best I have ever had in my life. (I am from California!) It's very inexpensive. (Oh but don't order a regular dinner item like an enchilada or chicken mole. Stick to the tacos and burritos.)
(Superior in South Williamsburg, also on the JMZ, is also excellent but no salad, no alcohol, more expensive, and very crowded. And if you're on the Lower East Side, I cannot recommend Barrio Chino highly enough, but I digress.....)
Posted by: mopar at March 4, 2009 12:53 PM
Homesweetstuy and Amzi, really appreciate your posts.
Posted by: mopar at March 4, 2009 12:55 PM
No problem mopar... Homesweetstuy... 100% agree.... The city is giving tress away for free.. I don't get why my neighbors don't want any... They all say they don't want deal with the clean up.. Trees will bring each person property value up... Help me understand the anti tree people of Bedford Stuyvesant... Do we need to do like Park Slope and get a civic league and have the city plant trees in front of every building unless you say otherwise...
Posted by: Amzi Hill at March 4, 2009 1:12 PM
I've been told that people don't want trees because the roots mess with the underground pipes. Hard to fathom cause I've never seen it happen anywhere else.
One the south-east end I'd like to see a bank, natural foods, and a pet supply store. A pharmacy (not eckards, duane read or the other chains), would be great too.
There's so much that can happen on Malcolm X.
Posted by: Susan Elkins at March 4, 2009 2:35 PM
Just FYI FWIW there is a pet supply store on Broadway near the Halsey stop. Just in case you're nearby.
Posted by: mopar at March 5, 2009 12:01 AM
When I lived in Bed Stuy in 2001, the store situation was pretty bad. The best place was actually around the corner from us -- they had fresh chicken, veggies, etc. Not great chicken or veggies, but okay. Sadly, it's one of those places that I bet might not still exist since the rents went up.
I don't think Starbucks is a bad thing either... but I realize in this crowd that is minority opinion.
Parts of Bed Stuy are already better served, retail-wise, than Clinton Hill actually. Fulton Street around Nostrand has a TON of stuff. Yes, most of it isn't doesn't sell arugula, but it serves the community. It'd be nice to see that corridor extend.
Posted by: Heather at March 5, 2009 8:36 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.