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February 27, 2009
Renegotiating with Landlord?
I pay $1,475 a month for a nice and newly renovated by small junior 1 bedroom in Greenpoint. I've been here almost 2 years - my lease is up at the end of June. But I was laid off last month and am living off of my severance and unemployment for now, and I called my landlord to let him now that I would need to break my lease early and was planning on moving out at the end of April. I thought 2 months notice was fair, and it is silly for me to pay so much when I could move into a 2 bedroom in the area with a roommate for less than $1,000 a month, probably even around $800 a month for a decent place seems possible now. My landlord took it well, but suggested that he might be able to drop the rent so I can stay for the duration of my lease, and he asked me to call him back soon. I am not sure how much of a decrease I can reasonably ask for, or if he could go low enough that it would be worth staying. Does anyone with experience in the market now have any insight? Thanks!
Comments
Why don't you tell your landlord you are looking to move to a place with $800-$1000 a month rent because that is all you can afford?
If he thinks he can get another tenant for more than that, he'll say, sorry can't do it. If he doesn't think he can get another tenant for more than that, he'll probably work something out with you.
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 27, 2009 9:07 AM
It would be worth it to the LL to take even 800 a month until the end of the lease. To try to rent it now would leave it probably empty for a couple of months and then he would likely have to sign a new lease at a lower rent. I'm sure he's keeping his fingers crossed you get a job and can continue with a new lease.
Posted by: mod squad at February 27, 2009 9:34 AM
I basically agree with northsloperenter.
Negotiation is about creating a win-win situation. It would be counterproductive to create a "lose" for yourself by starting the process suggesting that you can pay more than you can really afford right now.
To get to a win-win, you have to balance listening to your landlord (so that he can get a "win") and protecting your own interests. Start where you truly want to be and know your ceiling before you enter the conversation.
Keep in mind that landlords value a lot of things that are not money. If you've been very regular and good to the apartment and easy to deal with, you have more room to bargain. It's entirely possible that you can exchange a portion of your rent for making sure the trash gets out and the hallways and sidewalk are clean. If you are handy and there are repairs to do, maybe a barter can get worked out. Maybe it would be easier for him to agree to a very low rent if it was for a specific short-term duration, or if you agreed to let him know when you are back on your feet.
If you can think about it in terms of what you can offer the landlord in exchange that's of real value, then the easier it gets to get closer to what you need.
Good luck!
Posted by: vanburenproud at February 27, 2009 9:48 AM
if you are out of work right now and living off unemployment and severence, definitely DEFINITELY move somewhere cheaper and get a roommate. go as cheap as you can go, seriously. if i got laid off, the first thing i'd be doing is renting a room up in the bronx. dont mess with your life.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 9:54 AM
the only caveat tho is that if youre applying and you give a bronx address you're basically screwed.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 9:56 AM
YOur landlord sounds like a reasonable person since he offered to talk about the rent. If you like where you live, try to work it out- don't forget you'll still be laying out a hefty sum to get a new place and move, so think about how that impacts you also. Maybe he'll agree to further decreases in return for some maintainence work around the building. I did that when I lived in Brooklyn Heights.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 9:59 AM
ask him for the reduced rent but allow him to show the apt. while you are still there. this way , a new tenant will be in place once you're out.
Posted by: ez at February 27, 2009 10:00 AM
I wouldn't get too crazy. You've signed a legally binding contract and if you break it he can get a judgment against you for the remainder of the lease. OTOH, if I was him, I'd rather let you out than be faced with an unemployed tenant who might not pay me anything at all at some point. Weird.
Posted by: denton at February 27, 2009 10:00 AM
rob- I was born and raised in the Bronx. It happens to be a beautiful borough and my family lives there still. On the other hand, none of us would ever consider New Jersey :-)
Posted by: bxgrl at February 27, 2009 10:01 AM
It sounds like both parties are pretty level headed and reasonable so i suspect this will work out one way or another. Good luck.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 27, 2009 10:02 AM
No market experience needed. Just take heed to northsloperenter at February 27, 2009 9:07 AM. Also, consider negotiating a month-to-month arrangement. It's a renter's market. You have all the power. Good luck.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at February 27, 2009 10:05 AM
While you are in a lease and legally obligated to pay full rent for remainder of term, its a pain for a landlord to go after a tenant who cannot pay and most would surely renegotiate down in a bad market. Personally, I think 1475 for a studio in Greenpoint is high (folks living there a while would be astounded that anyone would pay that much) so the landlord will not have an easy time finding another tenant. Try to find some comps that support a decrease before you talk to him.
Posted by: saminthehood at February 27, 2009 10:07 AM
"the only caveat tho is that if youre applying and you give a bronx address you're basically screwed."
Wrong again.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at February 27, 2009 10:13 AM
im not wrong. i know of companies that automatically throw out resumes based on someone's address.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:18 AM
Politely and humbly offer $800-900. Keep the $1000 in your back pocket for negotiating later. He may be interested in the month-to-month tenancy too. It would be easier for him to raise it back when your situation and the economy recover.
Posted by: corolla at February 27, 2009 10:34 AM
if he accepts 900 i would SO find out who your landlord is and be like ill pay 1100. as much as i think rent is too high, i doubt he's going to accept 800 or 900 unless he's in love with you. i dont know if youve mentioned if youre male or female.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 10:39 AM
Wow - how do people in Riverdale, Bronx afford those expensive homes?
I have many friends who live in the South Bronx who hold high positions at many well respected institutions. If your going to diss a whole boro, please don't come off half cocked.
Posted by: dirty_hipster at February 27, 2009 10:40 AM
Rob, can you tell us the name of one company that throws out resumes submitted by people who live in the Bronx? Thanks.
Posted by: JIPS at February 27, 2009 10:56 AM
no because i dont want to get implicated in any kind of lawsuit like that. also i really dont believe it is illegal to discard resumes based on location actually. and it's not my company btw we have people from all the boroughs and new jersey.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 11:04 AM
I would definitely advise the OP to negotiate with his/her landlord. Most (small) landlords are more concerned with getting a stable, respectful tenant who pays the rent regularly and takes care of their property, than they are about getting the highest rent possible. If your landlord likes you, he/she may well be sympathetic to your current position, and accept a temporarily lowered rent; once you get a new job and get back on your feet, of course, it would behoove you to go back to your landlord and go back to a higher rent number if you can afford it.
On another matter, this is the advice I am giving to all landlords: DO NOT allow your tenants to stay past their lease end without signing a new agreement. You may think that you're OK, but you are completely unprotected, and the tenant who is unwilling to sign a new lease is out there wasting the time of every real estate agent in town, with the "I'm on month-to-month now, so I can move whnever I want," and is just waiting for the right moment to walk out on you.
If you've got good tenants, and their lease is up, get them to sign a new one. Negotiate with them if necessary -- believe me, going down $100/month or so is better than sitting with an empty apartment for several months. If they won't sign, get rid of them.
(And they're getting smarter now, unfortunately; when you ask them when they need to move, they'll tell you, "ASAP," just to get you to make the appointment. Then when you actually meet with them they'll come out with the "I'm flexible" BS. I cannot tell you how much time I've wasted in the past month with people like this.)
Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 11:09 AM
OK, in that case I really don't believe you. Just wanted to make sure first.
Posted by: JIPS at February 27, 2009 11:15 AM
^ oh jeez babs. youre a broker lol. i think you should change your screenname to DODO cuz that's where your lot is headed.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 11:17 AM
Thankfully, Rob, I don't believe 99.99% of anything you say, so your above comment doesn't affect me. Not to mention the fact that you are not now, nor will you ever be I imagine, in my target market...
Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 11:24 AM
Unfortunately, considering the pain that is our housing court system, signed leases practically dont help landlords that much. If a tenant wants to leave during the term, in all likelihood they will be able to on 30 days notice. A landlord who says no is in for trouble with the tenant down the line, and recourse is a pain.
From experience.
Posted by: saminthehood at February 27, 2009 11:36 AM
However, a signed lease is better than no lease at all. With nothing in writing to say how much the rent is, etc., a tenant can say anything, and the courts usually side with the tenants. Yes, a lease is worth the paper it's printed on, but that's better than nothing.
Also from experience.
Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 11:38 AM
quote:
Not to mention the fact that you are not now, nor will you ever be I imagine, in my target market...
well i sure got burnt! believe me honey chile, even if i had a gazillion trillion dollars i wouldnt pay a fee to some crooked slimey broker!
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 27, 2009 11:46 AM
babs -- isn't the whole point of month-to-month to allow the tenant to look for another place to live while the landlord can continue receiving rent from a good tenant?
If done correctly, it should be a win/win for both sides. The tenant gets a little more time, the landlord gets a few more months rent.
If the landlord would rather have someone on a 12 month lease at all times, then, by all means, make that a requirement, but I would think most smaller landlords would be OK with a good tenant staying on another 2 or 3 months rather than vacating immediately. I understand if landlords with large numbers of units don't want to be bothered with the complication.
Posted by: northsloperenter at February 27, 2009 11:49 AM
Nice landlord. Nicer than most.
To back up Rob, I've actually sat next to HR person as they tossed resumes from people with bad address. Resumes get tossed for a bunch of reasons. Having a stupid email address gets your resume tossed almost immediately. That and having a picture of you doing stupid things on myspace or an open facebook page will most likely get your resume tossed. Can't say that I agree or disagree with the practice, but I tell you in your email address is iloveyaegerbombs@gmail.com you most likely will not get the job.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at February 27, 2009 11:59 AM
Rob I believe you but I have never heard of this and I wonder why? Why do they throw out the resumes with certain addresses? What address? What is their motivation?
Except I could see a company throwing out a resume with an out of state address because they don't want to get into a relocation situation. That's all.
Do they get really specific or is it just the borough? I mean, would my resume get thrown out because I live in Bushwick? Or Queens?
Posted by: mopar at February 27, 2009 12:04 PM
"no because i dont want to get implicated in any kind of lawsuit like that. also i really dont believe it is illegal to discard resumes based on location actually. and it's not my company btw we have people from all the boroughs and new jersey." and mopar...
It would depend on why the resumes were discarded... If the employer felt commuting from the Bronx to the work location was inconvenient, that would be legal. If the employer decided that there are too many minorities living in the Bronx (or a particular zip code, which is even more common) and discarded on that basis, that would not.
Posted by: denton at February 27, 2009 12:22 PM
babs - my point is that once the lease ends, the tenant will be on a month-to-month on the terms set by the previous lease, and so requiring a new lease usually has little practical benefit to landlords unless the landlord want a change in terms (e.g. rent increase.) But, of course, you are correct that landlords should always have an original lease in place.
Posted by: saminthehood at February 27, 2009 12:54 PM
I think you've got some wiggle room-- I would take the advice of an earlier poster and tell your landlord what you realistically afford to pay. I know someone who recently told their LL they were moving out at the end of the lease, because he'd also lost his job and couldn't afford the rent. The LL had already been having a tough time finding a renter for the upstairs unit in the building (in carroll gardens), and offered to lower the rent by $500/month. Anyway, my point is, if you're a good renter and pay on time, it's possible the leap from $1495 to $1000 would be acceptable to your LL, who probably would rather avoid leaving it vacant for several months. One thing my friend did, was take on some of the super's activities (putting out the trash, etc), which I think saved the LL some cash on that end...
Posted by: ms_boerum at February 27, 2009 12:57 PM
The change in terms could also include a rent decrease, if such is negotiated. And there are many other protections inherent in a lease (such as the house rules that make up the last page of REBNY leases) that may not apply on a month-to-month situation -- if a verbal agreement is all there is, all bets are off!
"He never told me I couldn't have a dog. Once my lease ran out, he said it was OK for me to have pets." Court found in favor of the tenant on that one.
"He said I didn't need a lease any more, because we were friends. When I told him I couldn't pay the rent, he said it was OK." Ditto
A good tenant doesn't need an extra 2 - 3 months to find an apartment. And if he/she does, sign a lease extension for the period. Protect yourself and don't be taken advantage of.
Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 4:00 PM
Babs
I'm sorry but you are just wrong. A lease only protects the tenant, not the LL.
I only rent month to month, when an apt becomes vacant it only takes me about two weeks to get a unit rented via a Craigslist ad. Demand is so high in Boerum Hill that getting good prospects is never a problem. I always get 2 months security so I never worry about a tenant skipping on me. And I do my own credit checks so I know whom I am renting to.
You are giving a prime example of why I never use a broker. Too much bad advice.
Posted by: ribant4 at February 27, 2009 4:14 PM
You've just been lucky, ribrant, and I hope your luck holds out. I've dealt with too many situations in which manipulative tenants used the lack of any paper document to prove anything to take advantage of their landlords. In the old days month to month was standard because people generally trusted each other. Nowadays, it's often not the case. You sound like someone who is able to get a good take on people and know which ones are trustworthy -- I hope that continues for you, because one bad experience can burn you for life.
Posted by: babs at February 27, 2009 4:52 PM
You are getting some bad advice - you do not hold the cards here and I seriously doubt the LL will take a 50% reduction in rent in perpetuity. Frankly you can't just walk away from the apartment - you are legally liable for the full term of the lease - and while Landlord Tenant Court may not evict, even if you never pay your rent - getting a civil judgement against you for the remainder of the lease term is relatively easy - especially since a collection agency will likely handle it all for a %. Not to mention that any LL/Tenant Court action (or civil judgement) will show up on checks by future LL's and you'll be blackballed from all but the worst run buildings.
You should just tell the LL what you can afford for now, and see what he says - if he has a higher number in mind (likely) ask him if he'd take the amount you can afford if you can bring him a qualified applicant at his agreed rent before the lease expires. This he may agree to because the lost rent after you move can build quick. Then work your ass off finding someone for the spot.
The reality is - you signed a contract; a non-contingent contract at that....therefore any negotiation the LL does is simply out of the goodness of his heart and/or to avoid the hassle and potential loss of chasing you for the $. Do not try to negotiate under some misguided notion that you are doing him a favor, or that it is a renters market, or that you are in a strong negotiating position - all are not true or relevant to your position.
Be humble and recognize that YOU are trying to break a contract that YOU freely and voluntarily signed - while often times (like other small business owners) a LL will see the humanity in the situation and try to work things out with you - the LL has every right to collect on the contract (think about it - does Con Ed let you off the hook if you dont pay the bill due to unemployment? - or do they just shut off your electric?)
Posted by: fsrg at February 27, 2009 5:09 PM
Anyone know a good collection agency?
Posted by: slick at February 27, 2009 9:28 PM
FSRQ, while you are right in theory, it costs a lot of money time and effort to enforce a lease. That's why it's generally easier for a landlord who has some common sense to negotiate.
I would take it down a notch. Both parties here seem like they are being reasonable. I certainly wouldn't attempt to enforce a lease on a tenant that is recently laid off and trying to be responsible about their finances. I think that sucks. Because I paid a pretty high price for my house, I don't think I would try to negotiate to keep the tenant--I couldn't afford it. But if this landlord can afford it, it does make sense to.
Contracts are substitutes for trust, and are not always able to accommodate the reality on the ground. I think it's great that both parties here seem to want to use trust and common sense to come to the best possible mutual outcome, instead of relying on the letter of the lease.
Posted by: vanburenproud at February 28, 2009 7:05 AM
I read this post yesterday and babs' comment irked me so much that I had to come back and comment on it.
First of all:
You make it sound like a tenant who is looking for some flexibility in order to find the right place for them or their family to live (for potentially YEARS)is somehow this underhanded person trying to get one over on you and their landlord.
Second:
Do you know how completely arrogant it is for you to say that a person who may have two or three months leeway in their move in date is "wasting your time"? They are asking you to show them an apartment because they want to rent one. That is your job. If they don't like the apartment or aren't settling in desperation then they are a waste of your time? Isn't your job to help people find the right home for them, even if it means showing them multiple apartments over a period of time? Is this not what these same people are willing to pay you THOUSANDS of dollars for? You just want to show someone an apartment that has two weeks time, turn the key, flip the light switch and say "did you bring your checkbook?" "you really should put a deposit on this it's gonna be gone tomorrow" "you're not gonna find anything like this at this price" etc etc etc...and collect your $2600 fee. And why shouldn't you? These are just renters..they don't have the right to waste your time being picky about their home.
Posted by: boofer at February 28, 2009 12:53 PM
quote:
(think about it - does Con Ed let you off the hook if you dont pay the bill due to unemployment? - or do they just shut off your electric?)
actually, ConEd does have a program that gives you a waiver for a few months if you cant pay you bill (im serious). you just have to go thru a bunch of people on the phone to finally get to someone who will authorize it. it's a little well known fact of how utility companies work. lol dont try it with the cable company tho, it wont fly.
*rob*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at March 1, 2009 1:31 PM
I am a landlord and in this market having a steady tenant who you know for less rent is better than one u don't. Depending on when your landlord bought the place..he/she could be getting alot of cashflow monthly and can afford to take a big cut...either way I agree with others who have said tell them exactly what you can afford to pay.. If it's not enough then move out as planned.
Good luck!
Posted by: scarter at March 1, 2009 6:09 PM
Just to update you all - we spoke again and he was willing to go down to $1300, but I think that will still be too much for me, so I am still planning on moving at the end of April. He said it was fine as long as I allow potential renters in to see the place closer to my move date, and we also discussed that he might have some 2 bedrooms opening up in the next couple months that would be more affordable for me to live in with a roommate. He was very reasonable and understanding of my situation (I'd recommend him as a landlord if anyone ever asked for those types of recs). Thanks for all the advice!
Posted by: canyouwink at March 1, 2009 10:56 PM
That's great and good luck to you with your job and housing.
Posted by: mopar at March 2, 2009 3:16 PM
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