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February 9, 2009
Cost to Build a New Brownstone
More of a theoretical question here... if you owned a lot in Brooklyn, how much do you think it would cost to build a brand new Brownstone with modern construction techniques and classic styling?
Comments
Wow, what a question. I do NOT speak from experience, but I feel like taking a whack at it. I figure we're talking about a 4 story brownstone, with a utility basement. Lets say your lot is 25' by 100', and the house footprint is 25 x 40. That's a very nice-size house. Each floor would be roughly 1000 sq feet. Let's say that to dig out the foundation and build the shell from cinderblock would set you back $150-250K. A wild estimate, a very fuzzy figure, I am sure I'll be corrected on that one. Then to finish each floor, I figure about $120-$160 per sq. foot for permits, labor and materials. If you want to go fancy with woodwork and need specialty custom items, top-end appliances and accoutrements, say you need $200 per sq. foot. So maybe on the low end you need 1000sqft x 4floors x $120 per sqft = 480K plus 150K for the shell gives you 630K. Add the inevitable 30% margin for all the unexpected things, and you get 819K for the low estimate. Following similar math, the high estimate with nice everything I get $1.365M. THat's not counting the cost of the lot, of course.
What do you guys think: am I completely off the rails here?
Posted by: Sputnik13 at February 9, 2009 2:33 PM
Think it depends on how high you want it. Probably gets cheaper per floor. I think you're right on though with the 600-700k low end though since that's what my house is insured for total coverage, if I remember correctly.
Things to consider: facade costs about 10-15k or so per floor; I'd say it's a bit less for the foundation and framing but maybe pretty close when you include the facade; the rest is essentially a complete gut reno with kitchens/bathrooms. I bet some people will have a very good estimate of what that costs.
I think your high end is way too high, unless you're counting things like plaster moldings/ceilings throughout and old style doors/hinges/hardware, mahogany door framing/banisters, etc.
Posted by: justinm at February 9, 2009 3:10 PM
Sputnik13...I don't think you're that far off, but your low end seems very optimistic....and you've got too little for the shell, and too much for the finishes (but they balance out together pretty well.
The devil's in the details, but as a ballpark number, I'd go with $225 psf...that would cover both construction and design/engineering/filing. This would get you a well designed building w/ above average finishes and fittings.
To go lower than this you'd quickly end up w/ a Fedders building.
To go higher is easy...if you want a professional kitchen w/ all the very best appliances...add $...have to have solid walnut flooring instead of engineered flooring w/ 1/8" of walnut as the wear surface...add $....do the adjacent buildings need shoring?...add $...etc. You get the idea.
One real question is what exactly does "classic styling" mean to the OP? To really recreate the level of original detail found in classic brownstones would be very expensive.
Posted by: jcarch at February 9, 2009 3:49 PM
I don't know how easy it is to find Brownstone these days or what it would cost. I did hear that a quary reopened in Connecticut (much of the Brooklyn Brownstone came from New Jersey).
Posted by: SenatorStreet at February 9, 2009 3:56 PM
As a point of reference if costs roughly $100,000 + to re-face a 5 story 25 foot wide brownstone.
Don't know if that is similar to building from scratch, but if you figure $100k or so for the front, the same for the back... that's a chunk right there.
For classic moldings, woodwork, etc I'd put it at $2 million.
Posted by: christopher at February 9, 2009 3:57 PM
Fedders buildings should all be condemned and torn down.
Posted by: Sputnik13 at February 9, 2009 4:04 PM
Oh!!!! The architect whose brand new Greek Revival upstate mansion was recently featured in the NYT estimated $600 a square foot for his (today).
Posted by: mopar at February 9, 2009 4:17 PM
There are companies that make authentic looking new Victorian style window, door trim, and moldings. Can't recall names or costs. And of course you can buy salvage doors, mantles, bathtubs, sinks, stairs, and such.
Posted by: mopar at February 9, 2009 4:20 PM
The question is interesting, but as others have said, not quite specific enough:
If the intent is to recreate all of the plaster, trim, moldings, floors and details of an original brownstone, with central air, then you are likely looking at $500/SF+ -I think the $2 million number is probably a fair guess.
If you want a sheetrock box with a brownstone exterior, then maybe you could get something up for under $1 million, but it would be a stretch.
Posted by: squaredrive at February 9, 2009 4:57 PM
Depends do you plan on building with the big rubber rat outside your place or not?
Posted by: hannible at February 9, 2009 5:33 PM
I'm sorry, squaredrive, but why would you want central air in a new construction? It's so inefficient and takes up a lot of room.
Also, $500/SF+ ???!!! That's half a mil per floor! That kind of expense is not at all justified unless your brownstone is in the prime area of brooklyn heights or Upper West Side. If you're spending upwards of 500/SF you better get a maid and a butler, while you're at it.
Posted by: Sputnik13 at February 9, 2009 6:14 PM
Not sure where the shock is coming from - people have been paying "half a mil per floor" and more for renovated brownstones in recent years. I haven't seen mention of butlers in those listings, but may have missed it.
Again, I think $500 / SF is about right if you are getting into recreating brownstone historical plaster details, flooring, exterior details, and doing everything high end. 8-900K is probably achievable, but it's not going to look like a "classic" brownstone inside. 900K to $2million seems like a reasonable range, lacking specifics. Obviously there is no upper limit.
I can't comment on what expense is "justifiable" - that's pretty much up to whoever's doing the building and where they're doing it.
Posted by: squaredrive at February 9, 2009 11:34 PM
A new brownstone would not have the required handicap access. There are work-arounds for this, like the curved metal track lifts you sometimes see, but approval for a present day brownstone would be a problem.
Posted by: brucef at February 9, 2009 11:42 PM
i dont think single family brownstones would have to be ada compliant...
As far as costs, it depends on whether you want the exact same specs as an original brownstone or whether modern equivalents would be ok.
I'd love to hear about people's thoughts on "acceptable" facades.
Posted by: slick at February 10, 2009 12:34 AM
I'm working on a couple of new buildings that are more modern versions of row houses and the numbers I'm getting from contractors are typically around $200/sf. Obviously the details are very different, and we're putting in a lot more sustainable features, but they're not nearly as ornate or as labor intensive as a typical brownstone. I'd expect new construction brownstones to start at $225 a foot, depending upon the level of detail.
Jim Hill
Urban Pioneering Architecture
Posted by: JimHill at February 10, 2009 11:35 AM
Thanks for all of your comments. Your estimates came pretty close to this online estimator I tried:
http://www.building-cost.net/CornersType.asp
Labor: $518,447
Material: $716,573
Equipment: $20,034
TOTAL: $1,255,054 (not including land)
For classic styling, I was hoping for tin ceilings, nice doors and moldings, and the classic facade. When people get their building re-faced is any of that actually brownstone or just concrete painted brown? I've seen some bad work on the stoops and faces of buildings that have been redone.
Posted by: bknyer at February 10, 2009 11:54 AM
Sometimes people use brownstone slurry.
Posted by: mopar at February 10, 2009 6:12 PM
Real brownstone is almost never used. It is still quarried but is very expensive. There was a house on the Prospect Heights 2007 house tour whose facade had been restored using using real brownstone (Prospect Pl btw Carlton and Vanderbilt). It's quite different -- and very beautiful -- compared to the bog standard refaced facades done in tinted concrete. Too bad since refacing with concrete is so very expensive, but I think that's largely a factor of the labor involved rather than the materials. FWIW, since the economy started tanking I've noticed prices going down on facades jobs.
Posted by: 1929 at February 10, 2009 6:42 PM
If it's at all helpful to hear this estimate, we have insurance with Chubb and their practice is to estimate what it would cost to recreate our house exactly, not just build any ole house in its place and they estimated $1.3 million to recreate our 2-story with English basement limestone house. We have decorative wood parquet floors throughout, a decent amount of woodwork but not the kind that is excessively detailed. Only one fireplace.
Posted by: traditionalmod at February 10, 2009 8:01 PM
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