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February 10, 2009
Can Landmarks Do This?
I just received a violation notice stating that I do not have the correct brownstone door on my home. My issue is that I haven't changed the door since I purchased the home! I called the Landmarks Dept. to tell them that this is the condition that I purchased the home but she said they normally don't care about that! Has anyone been through this and are they really going to make me purchase a $10K door because of what a prior owner may have done? Seems like an abuse of control to me.
Comments
Welcome to the land of failed architects. If that door was put in after Landmark designation of the neighborhood without permission then you are f*cked, period. The only good thing is a landmark's violation has no bite until you need to file for another building permit. Then you'll have to fix the door.10K seems a little high. Oh, they could care less if it costs 10K or 100K.
Posted by: mod squad at February 10, 2009 7:06 AM
i would just laugh in their face. what are they seriously going to do? come and rip door down themselves? landmarks is a joke. if they are so anal about it they should pay for the door.
*r*
Posted by: PitbullNYC at February 10, 2009 9:41 AM
No they won't rip it down, just fine you till death.
Posted by: DeLepp at February 10, 2009 10:06 AM
It is true that Landmarks can't really do anything about the door that they want you to replace until you want to file for a building permit. You can just leave it there if you want. I don't think they even fine you -you'll just have an outstanding 'violation' that could cause issues if you want to sell the house or get a permit.
Posted by: herbivore at February 10, 2009 10:19 AM
These comments are all well and good but they don't address the OPs issue that he bought the house that way and whether or not the door is actually grandfathered in. How do you prove that and rectify the violation if you're in the right???
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 10, 2009 10:22 AM
Maybe the poster can find out if any neighbors have old dated photographs of the front of the house?
Posted by: cobblehiller at February 10, 2009 10:26 AM
In the past, many homeowners found LPC violations could be put on a back burner until further work came up. That appears to be changing. Take a look at: http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/html/faqs/faq_enforce.shtml
You might want to call Lily Fan, Director of Enforcement, mentioned at the end of that FAQ: 212-669-7952. You might also want to call LPC's Public Information Officer: 212 669-7817. I'm not sure whether Diane Jackier is still Director of Community Affairs: 212-669-7923. In terms of grandfathering, the burden falls on the homeowner to provide documentation (photos, etc.) of the conditions prior to landmarking (different than prior to purchase).
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 10:32 AM
If the door predates the landmarking, it should have been grandfathered in. If not, as mod squad and others said, you will have to replace it, if you do anything else to your facade down the line. It's a pain in the pocket, but in the long view, a good thing for the house and the neighborhood.
I'd measure the door, and keep an eye out for salvage period doors, or find out from LPC what they will accept in a new door, so you can get ballpark pricing. The new door will have to be in the same period style as the original 1800's door, so look around in your neighborhood to get an idea, if you are not familiar with styles.
To put a positive spin on it, a period appropriate front door makes all the difference in curb appeal. The door is the first thing you notice, before the windows, or much else. It will make a difference to your blockscape, and also to the bottom line, if you need to sell.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 10, 2009 10:36 AM
I'm an architect and I've dealt with Landmarks on similar issues. The only way to eliminate the requirement to replace the door is to find out when the neighborhood was given landmark status. If the door was installed before then, it's essentially grandfathered. If not, then the above comments are true; you do not need to do anything unless you need to file for a building permit.
Jim Hill
Urban Pioneering Architecture
Posted by: JimHill at February 10, 2009 10:36 AM
I guess I should take a picture of my front door today with a copy of the Post in front of it!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at February 10, 2009 10:40 AM
Another research thing - if you can get a copy of your landmarked district's designation report, you can find your house, and the report will note any changes from the original period facade, including replacement doors, windows, fencing, alterations to the facade, etc. If the report states that you have a replacement door that matches the description of what's there now, you can use that as proof to LPC that you are not in violation, that the door should be grandfathered in.
More recent designation reports can be linked through the LPC website. Older ones are available at the Bklyn public library, and there are links to sites that list all of the reports. I bookmarked one of them, but I can't put my fingers on it offhand. If I find it, I'll post it here.
Good luck.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 10, 2009 10:44 AM
They can fine you but I think you can appeal.
I had a violation outstanding for years because a neighbor decided to make an end run around LPC installing new ugly windows, and got caught with the window contractor there. MY new ugly windows were installed in 1971 (prior to landmarking my block) but the inspector just went down the block ticketing everyone assuming the same contractor had installed all the block's ugly windows at the same time.
After submitting affadavits from two elderly neighbors stating they remembered when the previous owner had installed the windows, getting a letter from Georgia Pacific stating that they had been bankrupt and out of business at the time the ticket was issued and finally - save the best for last - THEIR OWN FREAKING LANDMARKS PHOTOS OF OUR NEIGHBORHOOD IN THE APPLICATION FOR LANDMARK STATUS showing my house with its new ugly windows, I finally got it cleared.
Incidentally, I think clearing the violation was more a result of another LPC staffer taking over the case and clearing out his predecessor's 10 year deep In-Box than anything I presented to them.
Real estate transactions have no bearing on violations. A violation exists until it's cleared because it's against the address, not against the owner.
My next experiment at LPC will be how to replace MY landmarked ugly front door.
Good luck.
Posted by: Stonergut at February 10, 2009 10:47 AM
Some useful links, including the designation reports MM referenced:
http://neighborhoodpreservationcenter.org/designation_reports.htm
http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/lhg/nyc2.cfm
http://hdc.org/FAQ.pdf
http://hdc.org/preservingother.htm
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 10:57 AM
This thread is a perfect example why Curbed is so shitty compared to Brownstoner. That place is a cesspool of cynicism and ignorance.
Posted by: crimsonson at February 10, 2009 11:36 AM
Thanks Vinca. I've got so much stuff saved, sometimes I can't find anything.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 10, 2009 11:38 AM
My pleasure Montrose. I always enjoy your posts, and often find myself in the same situation, reference-wise.
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 11:41 AM
one more point and its a long shot. The WPA photographed every building in NYC during the 1930's. Get a picture of your house and see if the door was changed back then.
Posted by: smeyer418 at February 10, 2009 11:48 AM
http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/about/archives.shtml
here is the web address to get them...
Posted by: smeyer418 at February 10, 2009 11:56 AM
You might find this link for ordering/viewing tax photos a little more direct:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/taxphotos/home.shtml
This one (the home page for smeyer418's link) is useful, generally: http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/home.html
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 12:14 PM
Thanks to everyone that has chimed in. I guess this isn't going to work out so well for me. When I called Landmarks the lady told me that my home did not have the historic door at the time of designation BUT the door that is present now is not that door.
I'm sure I saved the real estate ads showing the house for sale with the current door before I bought it but it looks like this won't matter with LPC.
I just can't see how this is justified since I didn't install the door and may be able to prove that.
From Vinca's link it appears that I received a warning letter which is giving me a certain amt. of time to legalize the door "or else"
Thank you once again to all.
Posted by: frugal1 at February 10, 2009 12:34 PM
This is only the beginning. The city smells blood. We all liked to say we bought and owned million dollar homes and how much we like to raise rents and suck all the blood out of hard working renters. Well now the city wants its piece of the action. Let's rebel and throw Starbucks coffee in the East River like our fore fathers did in the Boston Tea Party.
Posted by: hannible at February 10, 2009 12:59 PM
I'm sure you (and the others posters) don't want to hear this, but I have to ask: How ugly is that door? There are some horrendous doors on our block, and it mars what otherwise would be a beautiful block.
BTW, a new door does NOT have to cost $10k, in case you need one.
Posted by: new2 at February 10, 2009 2:05 PM
Another scam Landmarks uses is a grandfathered element cannot be repaired. If it is even repainted then you get a violation to replace the whole thing. Its why you see decrepit awnings and beat up signs in Landmark Districts. Once they try to fix them the building gets a violation.
Anytime you see a 20 something taking pictures of brownstones from his antique 3 speed Schwinn, you should run him down in your Tahoe!
Posted by: mod squad at February 10, 2009 2:17 PM
You bought an expensive house in a landmark district. Stop complaining and go buy a decent door. Why should your neighbors and passersby have to look at your fugly door just because you are too cheap to replace it? Why should the integrity of the neighborhood be damaged just to save you money? If you can't afford a decent door then sell the house and move to an area that is not landmarked. Owning a landmark is a privilege, not a right--and guess what, it costs a lot of money.
Posted by: shillstoner at February 10, 2009 2:21 PM
Hannible, you're an ass, and I suspect an alias for the What. If I'm wrong on the latter, then maybe just separated at birth. If the city smells blood, you're obviously in line with the same straw up your nose and needle in your arm.
In some neighborhoods, it's possible these violations date back to the landmarking of the 70s (when most brownstone neighborhoods were very working-class neighborhoods). How many generations of *hard-working*, same-family owners, or different-family owners might these buildings have passed through since that time, entirely unconscious of violations or previous illegal alterations, not necessarily uncovered during title search. I'm a strong advocate of working with LPC and DOB. I don't find it nearly the misery that people love to paint it. I'm also very much cognizant of the misery that comes to an unknowing new owner by virtue of alterations that were not properly permitted or signed off. I have a lot of sympathy for frugal1. I also suggest that people consider this an object lesson, and think twice about the consequences for future owners when undertaking their own under-the-radar repairs.
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 2:23 PM
If the door on your house does not mach the one in the photos on file at the LPC taken at the time of designation, and if they do not have a permit on file indicating that the change was approved, you're in violation. It doesn't matter if someone else did it. When you buy a house you buy its violations.
I doubt the Commission will fine you for this, but it will stop you dead in your tracks the next time you want to pull a DOB permit.
I agree with MM that you should look at the bright side, a new historically correct door will be beautiful, it will increase the resale value of the house and will enhance the entire block. The staff of the Commission is not doing this to be mean to you, it is the law, and they have to enforce it.
Posted by: sam at February 10, 2009 2:29 PM
Shillstoner, I'm hoping a large neon sign with an arrow pointing to your post, says "Warning, sarcasm present."
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 10, 2009 2:39 PM
BTW scraping and painting with like color a current non conforming door that predates the landmarking shouldn't get you a violation. Maintenance is ok but you still need a permit from landmarks to do it. If they have the picture of the door that was there when it was landmarked and its only been painted you can restore it to its non landmarked way without installing a new one BUT if the made any change to it other than painting it you might....
Posted by: smeyer418 at February 10, 2009 2:54 PM
Ni Vinca I am my own ass. Unfortunately for you there are more and more people that think like I and the What. Don't take out your frustrations on us for being so stupid for getting sucked into the housing bubble. I know you want to sell your home now and make a couple of hundred thousand dollar profit,but you know what? You are going to have to sell at a loss or just watch the value of your home go down. Stop your whinning.
Posted by: hannible at February 10, 2009 3:23 PM
Not to be cynical but I'd check the LPC's information myself- don't just accept what they say. they are just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us.
If I am not mistaken, aren't violations supposed to be cleared before a house sells? A friend bought a house and only after several years were old violations found that although long fixed had never been cleared. But supposedly this was researched in the title search. Point is, mistakes happen, so don't just take their word for it.
Posted by: bxgrl at February 10, 2009 3:29 PM
"Ni Vinca I am my own ass" - Hannible
You got that right - Vinca
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 3:54 PM
Bxgrl: there was a thread several months ago about recent notices of violations from DOB, ECB, etc., in which many people reported receiving notices of violations dating back decades, which violations never appeared on their title searches. Probably the result of the city finally computerizing their files, and maybe in recognition of that (we'll never know), ECB granted a very short grace period in which those violations could be cured and certified without penalty. (In my case, the grace period expired the day before the envelope containing the city's notice was postmarked.) All a long way of saying that what you might find online now, you might not have found just a few months ago (though, unless you have a printout, you'll never be able to prove that).
Posted by: vinca at February 10, 2009 4:02 PM
As others have said, 1. yes, they can do this. If the door was installed without a permit, its a violation. It doesn't matter if you bought the building with that door. There is no statute of limitations - they can issue a violation decades after the fact, which is why they do not show up on title searches.
2. LPC has a book of designation photos - you should submit a request to look at these photos to see if your door was there at the time of designation. If it was, its grandfathered; if it wasn't, it may be a violation.
3. If you had no luck on #2 you can ask to see prior permits for your property - if the door was permitted, its OK, if not its a violation (this, admittedly, is a long shot).
4. You can repaint, repair, etc. grandfathered elements of a building. In fact, you SHOULD paint, repair them, etc., since replacing them is often not approved. See the rules and FAQ at the LPC web site.
5. Salvage doors are good, if you can find the right size/style.
6. While a pain in the pocket book, it will probably pay for itself, as it improves the curb appeal and integrity of the building.
Posted by: WBer at February 10, 2009 5:03 PM
If you are looking for beautiful antique doors check out this site.
The first site is based in good ole Jersey City. They have some amazing doors.
Posted by: Adam Dahill at February 10, 2009 7:17 PM
In case you didn't know about him, if you're obliged to find something period, try Eddie's salvage in Clinton Hill on Greene Ave. for doors. I would think his prices would be the best, but the doors may need some TLC. You can find other discussion about him on the forum here.
Posted by: meerkatz at February 11, 2009 4:16 PM
thanks again to all for tips/suggestions
Posted by: frugal1 at February 13, 2009 12:20 AM
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