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« New York Lease Agreement & Forms 535 e. 18th st, »
February 16, 2009
Boilers 1 vs 4 separate boilers
Hi
We're in the middle of buying a 4 family gut reno Brownstone. We can have one boiler for the whole house or 4 separate boilers . Seller is saying 4 boilers give alot of trouble and one boiler less problems.Can anyone give me a few estimates on the amount they pay (Heating bill)for a 4 family house.... If we get the one boiler we would have to have a reduction in sale price... Any feedback would be deeply appreciated. I have a 4 fily BS with separate boilers and believe me it was a headache spent alot to get it working properly.. Please share yr thoughts. This will be a rental property
Thanks
Comments
it depends on the existing heating system...if it is steam now are you willing to replace all the gas piping and radiation so that you can you can install 4 boilers and replace the existing heating with a hydronic system on each floor? ...do you have venting capabilities for 4 boilers? (you would probably be going for wall mounted direct vent units)...consult your architect ..
Posted by: eman1234 at February 16, 2009 3:48 PM
I belive it was a way to get homeowners to spend more money and a way for homeowners to make more money by letting tenents pay for everything. One boiler worked fine for years. Do we really need 4 boilers running to heat 1 house? It doesn't sound too green to me. If I were Obama I would tax homeowners that try pulling something off like this.
Posted by: hannible at February 16, 2009 6:53 PM
4 small boilers running individually to satisfy the heating demands of 4 small spaces as opposed to one large boiler heating the 4 small spaces as a whole is much more "green".
Ask Obama what he thinks of a controlled 30,000 BTUs per hour as opposed to a random 120,000 BTUs per hour.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at February 16, 2009 8:14 PM
for what it's worth, i would switch to 4 small boilers ... and have!
Posted by: werner at February 16, 2009 9:31 PM
dont worry, obama plans to tax the people w/ big boilers...and with small boilers, too.
Posted by: slick at February 17, 2009 3:00 AM
FWIW, I am planning 2 high-efficiency boilers for my 2 family house even though the inital outlay is going to pinch financially for two reasons:
1. It's going to be easier to price a rental unit when the only regular varaible expense is water
2. It's better for the planet.
The bottom line is when the tenant pays heat and hot water, then the tenant has a reason to conserve. And if I do my part by putting in a great, efficient system, then it's a pretty win-win situation.
Posted by: vanburenproud at February 17, 2009 9:38 AM
it does not make sense from passing cost on tenants because it will be in the lease and it means, that your tenant will pay less. Still you will pay much more for the setup and maintenance.
It does not make sense from the "control" point of view - you can run one boiler with four zones instead.
I do not see how it will help environment ether.
Posted by: bobjohn at February 17, 2009 3:11 PM
Bobjohn:
1. I think MP explained the greater efficiency of a two-boiler setup clearly above.
2. It's better for the environment when everyone pays for their consumption of utilities. It's the same logic as a Gas Tax, or a Cap and Trade system on carbon emissions. When I was a tenant, I didn't mention that my faucet was leaking hot water for months because I wasn't paying for my hot water. I also developed a really long shower habit, and washed my dishes differently.
It's human nature. You use stuff that's free differently than you use stuff that you pay for. It's better for the environment when landlords set up conditions that allow tenants to be responsible for their consumption
(provided of course that they don't stick tenants with old inefficient appliances--that's counterproductive.)
3. Of course the rent will be lower than it would if I were paying heat. But I don't have to deal with the headache of "too-colditis", don't have to grit my teeth because my tenant's consumption is out of control, and don't have to guess at what my tenant would consume when I am figuring out my rent.
That's a whole class of common tenant/landlord arguments that I am never going to have, and when you live in the same house as your tenant, that kind of conflict minimizing is priceless!
4. While I don't get to charge as if I paid the heat and hot water, I do get to charge a few bucks for the really nice hydronic radiant heat + efficient and relatively endless hot water that I put in that the tenant will have total control over and can use as much or as little as they please.
Posted by: vanburenproud at February 17, 2009 4:28 PM
Not sure if I understand u Bob! Pay more for the set up? Also, the boiler is set up with 4 cut off valves but seller can put the 4 boilers in if that what we want. I also don't see how its better for the environment please people clarify this for me.....Also Bob do u mean the rent will be cheaper due to fact that we will take into account that they pay their own heating bill...... I live in a 2 family house and the heating bill is extremely extremely high that's why we're reluctant to having one boiler.... I'm appreciating everyone response. Still trying to make the decision.
Posted by: PC at February 17, 2009 4:53 PM
the seller is going to supply 4 boilers?.... that provides him with an incentive to give you the cheapest possible system available..i am not sure if that is the wisest move on your part.. why not set a value and deduct it from the price, since i am a great believer into putting more into infrastructure and gaining in the long run by use of nore efficient systems
Posted by: eman1234 at February 17, 2009 5:13 PM
NYC "one-size-fits-all" heat guidelines on buildings where the tenant can't control their own heat are the least green, most antiquated option possible. The fines for being under 68 degrees are so steep that it makes more sense financially to crank the heat and let tenants regulate it by opening windows.
This is why separate heating controls are more efficient. Go for the per-unit setup.
Posted by: corolla at February 17, 2009 6:05 PM
Thanks all
Great advice as usual from everyone. We've decided to have the 4 boilers which was the original deal in the first place. Great advice and thanks for the clarification...
Posted by: PC at February 17, 2009 6:50 PM
well, good luck w/the adventure and give me an email if you need a free consultation..errol832000@yahoo.com
Posted by: eman1234 at February 17, 2009 7:55 PM
Would it be in bad taste to mention I do free estimates as well?
Master Plvmber:
John Cataneo
Gateway Plumbing & Heating
www.GatewayPlumbing.com
718-980-0909
Posted by: Master Plvmber at February 17, 2009 10:57 PM
btw gateway's work is the best that i have ever seen and they are really smart and intelligent guys..i would highly recommend them them
Posted by: eman1234 at February 17, 2009 11:22 PM
that should have read "i would highly recommend them"
Posted by: eman1234 at February 17, 2009 11:25 PM
Not to sound like an ass but MP, why a free estimate in this situation? Is it because this is consider a big project?
Posted by: zuffy at February 18, 2009 2:30 PM
I asked MP to quote for me on an oil-to-gas conversion for a 3 family. They were twice as expensive as an average of 8 quotes ! So they're good but beware, extremely expensive !
Posted by: brownie77 at February 18, 2009 3:29 PM
Christophe, what is your problem? There is ***no way*** you were quoted half my price for the job I proposed. You said in another post you had "10 plumbers" give you prices. Is that a hobby for you? Because I don't see a permit in the DOB system showing you've had the work done. Either that or you hired some fly-by-night that didn't file the job.
Zuffy, I do free estimates all the time. What I don't do is free on-site problem solving or whole system evaluations.
You're right though, I do charge a fee for total system designs like this one. I've got to if I'm going to stand by it and guarantee it's going to work. It takes a lot of time and thought to get these things right.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at February 18, 2009 6:19 PM
mp..i think that brownie77 is either a former girlfriend or a client who lusted after you to no avail..lol
Posted by: eman1234 at February 18, 2009 8:11 PM
The use of 4 individual boilers makes a lot of sense,especially if the boilers are placed in the tenants apartment to be accessible in case of emergency.The brand of the boiler has to be chosen for ease of service and installation.Combination heat and hot water units can be placed on closet walls and take up minimal space.It is true ,the initial installation cost is higher ,but it pays in the long run;when each tenant pay for what they use without creating conflict with the landlord and other tenants over heat/hot water usage.
Posted by: birchwoodc at February 24, 2009 7:22 PM
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