Forum
« DQ Pest Control Where to Find Heavy Joist Hanger »
January 24, 2009
High Efficiency Boilers
This is a picture I thought I'd share showing a twin high efficiency boiler installation we just finished in a Brooklyn multi-family residence. A large oil-guzzling boiler was removed and these two flame-modulating natural gas boilers were put in its place.
Unlike standard fixed-flame units, these boilers are rated at 96% efficiency and each is capable of supplying 399,000 BTUs. They are manufactured by an American company called Triangle Tube and are among the most highly-regarded boilers of their type. Even when temperatures got into the single digits recently, the boilers never had to work more than to produce just 145-degree water. The old boiler used to make 190-plus-degree water which required a much higher rate of fuel usage.
In the center of the system is a hydraulic separator which allows for more effective distribution of the heated water and removes air and sediment, further increasing efficiency.
I split the system into smaller parts to use more efficient pumps of lower wattage and minimize the risk of system-wide loss of heat. The boilers are wired to a control that rotates them in and out of service as needed and temperature sensors in the building average the heat requirements of the 2nd and 4th of 5 floors.
These people wanted efficiency and they followed through to get it.
Yes, I'm bragging, but this is...
...Good stuff!
Comments
absolutely gorgeous job...you have every right to brag...what controls did you use?...nice to see someone willing to put money into infrastructure as well as finishes..
Posted by: eman1234 at January 24, 2009 9:23 AM
looks very hot, tight insulation. I guess there wasnt any more than $40 left for that utility sink.
Posted by: jp2 at January 24, 2009 9:45 AM
Wow, that is some fancy plumbing. Thanks for posting.
Posted by: mopar at January 24, 2009 10:25 AM
We used Tekmar controls with remotes sensors.
There are no thermostats in the tenants' areas for people to fiddle around with and all the control is set in the boiler room.
Many area people know Tekmar for their steam boiler controls which offer many of the same benefits and replace the old Heat-Timer units.
The first thing we did was put that sink in so the installers could keep themselves and the area clean and to cool off the soldered fittings to keep the job moving faster.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 24, 2009 10:35 AM
what did they use for radiation?...on a high end job like this, you usually get to install some nice merchandise..
Posted by: eman1234 at January 24, 2009 11:58 AM
wow :)
Posted by: raphael9 at January 24, 2009 1:30 PM
This building is re-using their big old cast iron radiators.
They've got lots of nice old scroll work and there was just no reason to replace them.
There was talk of repiping the building in the near future with copper as some of the old steel pipes are showing signs of wear. With this new arrangement, splitting the building into individually-operated zones will be a much simpler task.
Pics of other projects here:
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 24, 2009 1:59 PM
Nice clean job, nice insulating job also!
Posted by: denton at January 24, 2009 5:29 PM
btw, is it too gauche to ask what the ballpark price was for this incredibly beautiful installation?...btw tito at pronto must love you, since i assume that is where you bought the goods (they are the best outfit in town if youask me)...any idea of what happened to armando, he was a bit grumpy, but a great source of knowledge on all products
Posted by: eman1234 at January 24, 2009 7:21 PM
Like eman - I want to know what the price tag was???
Posted by: parkslopemom at January 24, 2009 9:15 PM
Sorry, that would be a breach of the plumber-client confidentiality privilege.
http://www.gatewayplumbing.com/gallery.cfm
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 25, 2009 7:25 AM
Wow. looks amazing.
How many units / sqft is the building? Whats the ballpark price on a system like this?
Posted by: MrHancock at January 25, 2009 5:40 PM
Even I know Tito. . . small world.
Impressive work.
Reminds me that I need to insulate my own boiler room pipes . . .
What kind of exterior ventilation does that system need? From the photo, it looks like the windows are closed.
Posted by: IronBalls at January 25, 2009 7:01 PM
The building is 10 units, about 25,000 square feet.
The modulating/condensing boilers use a sealed-combustion burner design so they take air directly from the outside through pipes set into a removed window frame that was refitted to take the new PVC conduits.
Speaking of PVC, the boilers are so efficient and extract so much heat from the natural gas used, that there is very little heat left in the exhaust. Because of that, the flue piping for these boilers can be the PVC plastic pipe normally used for drainage.
You have to get up close to them to tell when they are running. They're amazingly quiet.
I'll only tell you this about the price of the job: That picture shows about $25,000 worth of materials.
Most of the cost of this installation is in the labor.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 25, 2009 8:01 PM
I want this in the basement of my townhouse :)
Posted by: bobjohn at January 25, 2009 8:58 PM
cmon...it is a 75,000 to 100,000 job..do not be coy...i want clients to know what a high end job like this costs..they often think that they can get this level of craft for a fraction of that cost
Posted by: eman1234 at January 25, 2009 9:06 PM
Did it cost more than the house did??
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 26, 2009 8:48 AM
The retail price of that stuff may be $25k, but who pays retail?
Master P has every right to keep his contract prices to himself.
That said, if the job included removing the old boiler, I'd guess he charged about $40k for the entire job and that it took a couple weeks in complete..
Posted by: IronBalls at January 26, 2009 10:27 AM
That is one sexy pictures, MP. Nice.
Posted by: an architect in Brooklyn at January 26, 2009 11:08 AM
Those two little boxes are boilers?
They look more like burner units that are usually
attached to boilers.
Where does the water get heated?
By the looks of the piping, there is a lot of water in that system.
Posted by: sam at January 26, 2009 3:10 PM
Do systems like this exist for steam. I have a multi-family and it seems like it is much more difficult to modulate the temps and amount of steam from one unit to the next. Steam is either on or off and you simply boil water to make steam and the steam works its way through the radiators until it cools and returns to the boiler as water.
Posted by: JoeBushwick at January 26, 2009 3:22 PM
Yes, those two little boxes are boilers that push a boatload of BTUs into a small container of water VERY quickly.
For that reason, you've got to move a great deal of water through them as they burn.
We use the hydraulic separator (the vertical black and silver thing in the center of the picture) to allow us two separate rates of flow: one through the boiler(s) and another through the system, each of which is only as much as is required without overshooting a target temperature.
If we had piped this in the traditional manner without some means of separation, we would've widened temperature swings in the rooms and decreased efficiency.
Sorry if this is too technical.
I'm into this type of thing.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 3:28 PM
is this for heat and hot water?
Posted by: sam at January 26, 2009 3:31 PM
again a real gorgeous job
Posted by: eman1234 at January 26, 2009 3:32 PM
a true technician. If I wasn't poultry I would be giving you two thumbs up!
Posted by: the chicken at January 26, 2009 3:34 PM
I'll take a wing any time.
This is currently for heat only. Hot water will be added in the future and will be a simple plug-in to what's there now.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 3:41 PM
The boiler in my building is only slightly smaller than the QE II. I can't believe these little units do the job.
Posted by: sam at January 26, 2009 3:45 PM
Wow, massa plumma! 'Hell you doin' down dere? Impressive.
***Bid half off peak comps***
Posted by: Brownstones Half Off at January 26, 2009 6:07 PM
Master Plvmber,
You can come work on the plumbing in my basement any day!
Wonderful work! We have a one/two family townhouse. I wonder how much it would cost to have the heating system redone.
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at January 26, 2009 6:15 PM
Boiler porn? Only on Brownstoner...
Posted by: Cobblekrill at January 27, 2009 10:31 AM
Gateway- Did you happen to use the new tekmar "gateway" to control the system online? We've done some installs with Munchkins and Peerless with aux. sensors with the tekmar tN4 set up that is super efficient.
Posted by: bigsue llc at January 27, 2009 7:35 PM
Bigsue, we decided against the gateway connection until we add the domestic hot water system. As you know, the tN4 being in place, we'll have options as usage in the building changes, but there is no reason to make any decisions prematurely.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 28, 2009 8:30 AM
Master Plvmber,
I am interested to know if this is something that you would recommend in a small 4 unit building and separately gas metered for each unit? I am wringing my hands over a solution for an upcoming renovation.
Posted by: rholtjr at November 11, 2009 5:36 PM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.