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January 26, 2009
Hi-efficiency on the cheap(er).
This is the working man's version of the High Efficiency Boiler post here: http://www.brownstoner.com/forum/archives/2009/01/high_efficiency_1.php#comments
This installation will heat about 3,000 square feet and cleanly burn natural gas at 95% efficiency.
It is highly effective and serviceable.
Let me know when you're sick of my crap.
Comments
How much would something like this cost? The other one looked like you would have to give up your first born to pay for it.
Posted by: Just Wondering at January 26, 2009 8:32 PM
There are lots of variables, but expect this to cost $10,000-$14,000 including removal of your old boiler if you can vent it easily.
If not, having a chimney company install a PVC pipe down your chimney and connecting it to the boiler will cost you several thousand more.
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 9:06 PM
i do not recognize the unit...you have a taco circulator controller( a cheap date)and i think that you have a spirovent (my fave) hidden behind that expansion tank..but what is the unit...btw.. i have to recommend anyone that is thinking about getting a high efficiency boiler to go to pronto gas heating supply on chrystie st in nyc...you may pay more for the merchandise, but the service is incredible..you will save endless wmounts in service calls by dealing with these guys..
Posted by: eman1234 at January 26, 2009 9:10 PM
i also notice that you stubbed out another zone...future indirect water heater?
Posted by: eman1234 at January 26, 2009 9:11 PM
I'm sure Pronto thanks you for the plug, eman, but my guess is that most people would prefer the installer they hire select and provide the heating equipment they feel is best suited to the application.
The boiler is made by Burnham and the pump relay (cheap date?) is only for zoning purposes. Outdoor temperature reset and flame modulation is done with internal logic via a Honeywell MCBA controller, the same one that Weil-McLain uses in their Ultra model.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 9:31 PM
i did a install of a weilmclain ultra a few years ago and it costs 300/ month to heat 5000 square foot loft..i guess it was a decent design on my part..
Posted by: eman1234 at January 26, 2009 9:45 PM
btw master plumber
your work is fantastic..god bless
eman
Posted by: eman1234 at January 26, 2009 9:55 PM
It looks so beautiful. Nothing at all like the boilers I have seen. Master Plvmber, if we convert from oil to gas and do the Keyspan thing, do we have to hire them or can one hire an independent plumber such as yourself? How does that work?
Posted by: mopar at January 26, 2009 10:31 PM
Wait a sec. So how much would one's gas bill be for 3,000 sf if you leave the thermostat at 68?
Posted by: mopar at January 26, 2009 10:33 PM
The cost of heating your home depends on lots and lots of things, Mopar. As a professional, I never answer that question. People don't just get disappointed if my numbers are off, they get litigious.
Your neighbors in homes of similar construction can answer that much better.
Any company can convert your home to gas heating and install your boiler under the National Grid incentives program.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 10:47 PM
judt curious, what is the service life of this boiler?
Posted by: bobjohn at January 26, 2009 11:01 PM
Most wall-hung boilers have a life expectancy of about 15 years.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 26, 2009 11:15 PM
I have a Viessman 300 series gas boiler. But they also have a model which hangs on the wall like the one you show here. Is there an advantage to one type over the other. My house is 5 1/2 stories tall and approximately 5,000 sq. feet, if that makes any difference.
And Master Plumber, I never tire of your postings. On the contrary, I always look forward to them. Keep them coming, please!
Posted by: homey at January 26, 2009 11:23 PM
Heh, MP, these posts are excellent. I'd also like to hear any opinions you have about why Burnham (say, versus the fancy-pants Viessmans and their ilk).
HE boilers are exhausting at high temps, right? Is it a 4" PVC flue? How far can you run them, e.g., 50 feet? Gotta have (extra) make up air for these boilers too, I'm sure.
All in all quite different from an atmospheric boiler install. Would be interested in opinions on the break-even between the higher install cost versus the higher efficiency.
Posted by: an architect in Brooklyn at January 27, 2009 12:08 AM
HE condensing boiler exhaust is lower temp as more heat has been usefully extracted, hence you can use a plastic exhaust (it's also corrosive.)
I heat my 4 story 3000sqf semi-detached for level charge of 325/mo. It's steam (highest losses) and 84% atmospheric. Pretty much worst case.
Can't quite compare (because with steam you can't go HE), but if a replacement is $6k and a setup like above is $12k, and you save less than $40/month, the payback is greater than the life of the boiler if my math is correct. Too bad. But maybe the second time around the replacement cost is only for the boiler, so it gets more tricky to compute?
Thanks for the posts, MP.
Posted by: cmu at January 27, 2009 8:54 AM
Viessmann is a world leader in high efficiency and an excellent company and makes highly-advanced boiler and water heating products.
They carry a necessarily high price tag and have relatively few distributors here in the U.S.
Another German company, Buderus, has had more success in North America in my opinion partly because of their less-radical designs and terminology.
There are times when I'm working on a Veissmann product that I start to feel like I don't know anything about boilers. Without getting too technical, some models are just that foreign.
See here: http://www.viessmann.com/com/en/products/Medium_boilers/Vitocrossal_300__87_bis_142_kW_.html
What companies like Burnham and Weil-McLain have done is picked from the European companies like Veissmann and Buderus and others and applied some of the technology to boilers of simpler and more familiar design.
In fact, the Weil-McLain Ultra and Burnham Alpine are largely European-made boilers distributed by those American manufacturers.
I like Veissmann products very much, but haven't had much luck in getting them on board to do a good training session for my company. Burnham, Tekmar and others make themselves available with a single phone call.
Architect,
The flue and air intake on these boilers are indeed PVC pipes. They have to handle the corrosive properties of the moisture contained in the condensing flue gases and work best with cool fresh air from out of doors. If they take air from inside the building, they tend to create a negative pressure (not quite a vacuum) in the home which pulls air from outside in a less desirable and controlled way.
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 27, 2009 9:11 AM
Cmu, you're right.
This is a purchase you make because you feel a responsibility to the environment, not so much to your wallet.
The problem is many of our homes are set up for the old stuff.
Many new homes are built with a space for a side-wall venting boiler and water heater in mind and replacing boilers in those homes is an inexpensive task.
Think of it the other way: If you had to replace your boiler and the job included having to add a 10-inch square, hand-laid brick tunnel from your boiler to 6 feet above your roof line, it would be a cost you may never recover.
Setting this up sooner rather than later prepares your home for easy high-efficiency now and in the future.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 27, 2009 9:21 AM
on other issues I have had to wrestle with this; on my heating system, converting from 1-pipe steam to water to use HE would've been way too expensive. maybe if i win the lottery...
Posted by: cmu at January 27, 2009 10:14 AM
I have a Veissmann in a country home and love it. I think its best for this kind of residence where I am not there very often (weekends) because of its programmability. It was installed in 1999 and was really the only truly programmable type furnace out there back then.
For a primary residence, or an investment property that is essentially always occupied, I don't think you need the expense and programmability of a Viessman. Also, as MP says, there are far fewer companies knowledgeable about them and who can install them. I was lucky that the local oil guy had already done a few, otherwise I would not have installed it.
You can actually call the boiler up on the phone and tell it you're on your way and to start up.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at January 27, 2009 10:22 AM
Master plumber - very impressive. Keep em coming. Your posts are always a delight
Posted by: troll at January 27, 2009 10:47 AM
Very cool, Master Plvmber. Thank you!
Posted by: mopar at January 27, 2009 11:43 AM
when you convert from oil to gas, keyspan gives boiler for free (or $600, ie almost free). I got many quotes (from about 10 reputable plumbers) and they all came around $6k-$8k (new boiler + new water heater) except from Master Plumber. His estimate came at $18k. Ooops !
Posted by: brownie77 at January 27, 2009 3:14 PM
Wow! Great job making me look like a thief, brownie77!
Now would you care to email me your name and address (Ooops!) so I can figure out if you're real and what you might be talking about?
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 27, 2009 3:42 PM
I need some advice. We are soon to begin reno. of a 5 unit, center stair, frame building. Desiring a high efficiency HVAC system, we chose Daikin VRV air source heat pumps. Seemed like a real good compromise (geothermal was our original idea) providing both heating and cooling with a single unit and still not relying on a combustible heat source (at least not on site). Although a compromise, it aint cheap, and with the economy doing what its doing we are now seriously considering another redesign. And so we get to my point, any opinions on PTAC's as a much, much, much less expensive alternative?
Posted by: tinwoodsman at January 27, 2009 5:16 PM
brownie
i am sure that gateway gave you an accurate price for a really good system that had no comparisons to the other bids.. i have worked next to thse guys , and while a little pricey, they are honest and experianced... what you save from some mutt installing a boiler on the cheap , you will pay in endless service calls
Posted by: eman1234 at January 27, 2009 9:33 PM
MP,
With these fancy new boilers, how much does it typically cost to heat your average 10,000 square foot multifamily tenement building with single pipe steam heat?
With my existing ten year old Weil McClain gas boilers, I average about $3000/mo currently. I'm just asking for your best guess. What type of system do you normally recommend for run of the mill tenement rental buildings? Obviously cost is king.
Would I see big savings switching to something new?
Posted by: IronBalls at January 28, 2009 10:36 AM
Unfortunately, none of these fancy boilers work with steam systems.
As for heating costs, I simply don't and wouldn't know.
I rarely ever see people's heating bills, before or after an installation.
I don't get complaints and no one ever seems hesitant to call me when they're disappointed about something, so I take that as a good sign.
I will add that I recently did some upgrades for a multi-family on E.90th St in Manhattan where one of the owners told me he saved over $8,000 in fuel so far this year.
Honestly, I don't know how accurate that is and I have no idea if that's typical or not, but I can only go by what I'm told.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 28, 2009 12:38 PM
Hmmmm. . . oh well no silver bullet for us poor landlords, I guess.
Posted by: IronBalls at January 28, 2009 8:09 PM
Yeah, but there are lots of ways to green up your steam systems using conventional stuff.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at January 29, 2009 6:05 PM
Hey, I have just closed on my 1927, 3400sf, 2 story w/ fin basement, home, after renting it since May and not paying the gas. Hydronic system w/ old iron and a Slant Fin boiler maybe a decade old.
My first gas bill for Jan is $1200! I feel like this is high and NatGrid has possibly over estimated and how will they get a accurate reading if I ca'nt get them out to do an initial reading? The house has newish vinyl windows, doesn't feel drafty etc. We've left the thermostat on 70. Is this bill in the ballpark? Or, am I just stepping in to the reality of my system?
So, to step away from my rant, I am looking for some advice on things i can do short of a new boiler etc. Can I expect good results from a boiler reset control? Also, are there any other options for making my system more efficient?
Posted by: pfashal at February 1, 2009 12:47 PM
There are lots of options. If you're serious and want to start another thread, we'll get into it. This one is lost.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at February 3, 2009 4:53 PM
Master Plumber, your comment above really caught my attention:
"Yeah, but there are lots of ways to green up your steam systems using conventional stuff."
I'd welcome any elaboration on that. Even looking at Burnham boilers, it appears all their EnergyStar-rated units are for hot water systems only, not steam....
Posted by: Roebling at February 5, 2009 9:51 PM
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