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January 15, 2009
Brooklyn Heights OR Park Slope?
If houses cost the *SAME* in Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope, which neighborhood would you prefer to live in? (serious question!)
Also, does anyone know why the retail offerings on Montague are so slim?
Comments
I'd much rather live in Park Slope. You can find equally quiet, lovely blocks, but have access to a much larger group of restaurants, bars, shops, prospect park, BAM, an incredible amount of transportation, and some of the best schools in Brooklyn (if that's important to you). You add five minutes to your commute, and in exchange you gain a wealth of options for social and entertainment activities.
But Brooklyn Heights is really nice too. If you can afford to live in either neighborhood, you really can't go wrong.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 15, 2009 9:36 PM
That's a tough one, and dependent on age, lifestyle, etc.
Also, if by house you mean a condo or coop (as opposed to, well, a house), I'm betting Park Slope will have much more reasonable maintenance charges compared to Heights.
Heights is much closer to Manhattan, but in terms of restaurants and vibrancy I find it falls way short of the Slope. Then again, I prefer Cobble Hill to either, as it offers some of the charm of the Heights but the amenities of the Slope. (But I'm also still renting. Considering my price range and availability we'll probably end up in the Slope which is currently cheaper than Heights or Cobble Hill.)
Posted by: RaginCajun at January 15, 2009 10:14 PM
Are you doing a poll or asking for advice?
Because which neighborhood you prefer probably has much more to do with the person answering the question than anything else.
cwbuecheler sums it up pretty well. Brooklyn Heights is very close to Manhattan and is a lovely neighborhood. Park Slope is a little further out and has the park and more restaurants.
When I moved to Brooklyn in 2007, I found I could get more for my money in Park Slope, but I looked at several places in Brooklyn Heights and would have been happy to live there if I found the right space for the right price.
Posted by: northsloperenter at January 15, 2009 10:22 PM
Personally I'd choose Brooklyn Heights. Born and raised, and still live here, so I'm a bit biased.
But in general I don't think you can go wrong either way, I think it come down to a personal preference, which neighborhood suits you better.
As for Montague St, I think the retail goes in cycles. Right now the rents on ground level retail is in the $22k a month rent range. That is a hell of a chunk of change to pay in rent (and the commercial tenants of a building pay a substantial portion of the building's real estate tax bill, some Montague St buildings have $90k a year range tax bills). Give it some time for the rents to get a bit more realistic and I think it'll change. But then again, Montague has never been more than a handful or bars/eateries and diner/fast food type places.
Posted by: christopher at January 15, 2009 11:32 PM
"Are you doing a poll or asking for advice?"
I am asking for advice, knowing that neighborhood preferences are subjective. I initially thought that Bklyn Heights was out of my price range, but I've started to notice more price parity among apartments and even a few townhouses in Park Slope and Bklyn Heights. I like both areas but I'm relatively new to Brooklyn, so I thought I'd ask around. Thanks for all the comments. Christopher--I am shocked at the retail rents on Montague!
Posted by: gordy at January 16, 2009 3:37 AM
Having lived in both, I agree with the comments made above. However if you are looking at this strictly from a financial pov, I agree with NSR. I think that for apts, BH is under-priced right now in comparison to PS. BH is getting this rap as an old people's nabe in comparison to PS, which, imo, makes it a good deal.
But if you have a car make sure you have plans for it in BH. There's hardly anyplace to park there anymore.
Posted by: denton at January 16, 2009 6:58 AM
Gordy is right that there is growing price parity betwen the 2 neighborhoods (or rather, the spread between the two is noticeably shrinking), at least as to certain aprtments -- 1 BR and 2 BR. Whether this narrowing of the traditional spread is merely perception of the nieghborhoods or a fundamental shift is hard to tell, but Denton is right that (at least in the size) the Heights is a good deal in comparison.
I don't think the 3BR apt level had narrowed as much, nor the townhouse market -- you really don't see very much in townhouses in the Heights under $3.5 million, whereas I think you see a price points throughout Park Slope from $2M (or less once you get down by 5th Avenue adn beyond 9th Street) to $3M. I think that type of spread is traditional between the two neighborhoods, but you do now see more anomolous units at teh high end in Park Slope (or maybe the web just makes them more obvious than they used to be).
Lifestyle wise, the nieghborhoods are a decision about whether your social life focuses on Manhattan. The more it does, the value of the shorter train ride becomes more apparent. It's more than 5 minutes to Park Slope --realistically it's 10 to 20 minutes (depending if you are near Flatbush or near 9th St., near the park or near 4th Ave.).
If you don't commute everyday, I'd think that Park Slope is definitely the better choice.
I think parking in both neighborhoods is very difficult (as evidenced by the outrageous fees people charge for garages).
Posted by: Boerumresident at January 16, 2009 9:18 AM
Brooklyn Heights!
Posted by: karo25 at January 16, 2009 11:32 AM
A million years ago before I bought my first house, I considered both neighborhoods. At the time, it was an easy choice. Park Slope definitely suited my lifestyle better. I've always found the Heights to be a bit stuffy for my taste and that was back when PS was still a hippie liberal paradise. Plus, I had a dog and that park was just calling to us!
I've since moved on from the Slope. But if I had to make that decision today, I might give more consideration to the Heights because there is no longer a huge difference between the neighborhoods. Differences, absolutely...but not as much as there used to be.
Anyway: I'd go with the Heights if I had to commute and the Slope if I knew I was going to use the park.
Posted by: rh at January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
I moved near GAP in 2007 after a few years on Pierrepont Street and the extra ~10 minutes commuting each way (and having to switch trains) is definitely a drag and there are a lot of great things about BH (promenade, pick-up distance from Grimaldi's, etc.), but restaurants are much better in PS and the park is awfully nice. If you're close to the B/Q and 2/3 in PS I'd be equally inclined toward either neighborhood, but the farther you get from those trains the better BH looks. Just my 2 cents.
Posted by: MsBrooklyn at January 16, 2009 12:44 PM
I think BH is a little sleepy for me -- and I actually like sleepy. But I do really like the blocks off Henry and Clinton below Montague that have more of the Cobble Hill vibe (which I'd also prefer over either). Henry and State is very different from, say, Henry and Pineapple. :)
However if Cobble Hill didn't exist I'd probably choose PS -- proximity to the park is so key and it is a beautiful neighborhood with more "stuff" than BH.
Posted by: duckumu at January 16, 2009 2:09 PM
Unless you visit Manhattan on a daily basis I would choose Park Slope without a doubt.
cwbuecheler is right on target!
Posted by: troll at January 16, 2009 2:46 PM
We lived in PS for 4 years (Co-op) and moved to Cobble Hill in '05 when we ought a t'house. We walk with the kids fairly regularly to the Promenade and when we do we always pop into the one of the playgrounds for the chums to play a little.
I love the streets of BH but no more than CH and while I agree the amenities on Montague aren't great their blocks of Court St are even worse. If it has to be a choice between PS and BH I'd choose PS but nothing will get me moving to either after living in CH.
Certainly where BH has it over PS is if you work on Wall St, as one Subway stop to work is damn convenient. Although, given the current economic climate that's important to a smaller number of people than it was even 6 months ago. Perhaps that might be the reason for parity in prices?
Posted by: 99luftballons at January 16, 2009 3:16 PM
It really depends what your priorities are. I see BH as older and stodgier, but there are some of the most charming residential blocks in the entire city are near the Brooklyn Bridge (mostly brownstones, very expensive). The pre-war buildings up Montague near the promenade have high monthly fees but offer a very civilized lifestyle with lots of conveniences. The local elementary school, PS 8, has a failing grade from the Board of Ed.
Park Slope is younger, has much better shopping/dining offerings, and is more varied in housing stock. You'll definitely get more bang for your buck; the one downside is the longer commute to Manhattan - depending on which part of the Slope you live in.
Posted by: bookistan at January 16, 2009 3:29 PM
My comments about the Park Slope commute assumed that a) you were not commuting to wall street from BH, and b) You live in the north slope area and can use the B/Q without having to transfer.
I work a block away from the 34th St. B/Q stop, and live five blocks from the 7th Ave B/Q stop in Park Slope. It's at most five minutes longer than it would be from BH, and it's probably faster on most days since I don't ever have to transfer and can take whichever train comes first.
Yeh, if you're going to lower manhattan, BH is way faster than Park Slope. And if you're looking to move to center/south slope, and are stuck on the F, that slows things down too.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 16, 2009 3:35 PM
I hate to repeat what so many have already said, but it really does depend on your personality. Things to consider:
--There are more subway lines going through BH
--There are more & better supermarkets in PS
--There aren't really any parks in BH, so if you have kids/dog you have to go down to cobble hill or up the the cadman plaza park.
--PS has more restaurant options, but if you are in south BH, you can always go to cobble hill which has a lot of restaurants
--There are 2 movie threatres in BH, 1 mainstream on Court, 1 indie on way up on Henry street. Is there a threatre in PS?
So as you can see, it really depends on what matters to you.
Posted by: missing_cobblehill at January 16, 2009 3:36 PM
There's a theatre on 14th in PS. Six screens or something. Not great, but not terrible.
Posted by: cwbuecheler at January 16, 2009 3:45 PM
I think Park Slope is a little bit more down to earth than Brooklyn Heights... I like Brooklyn Heights but it feels like a chunk of the UES broke off and floated down the east river. Brooklyn Heights I do not find to be a friendly neighborhood at all. Park Slope is a little better, a little when it comes to hospitality. I like the Queen Anne Architecture of PS also but that is just my taste. Brooklyn Heights is the oldest Brownstone neighborhood in Brooklyn but I like the later styles.
I lived in North PS as you people say for 6 years and it was great when I first came but as time goes on I see it becoming more like Brooklyn Heights every day. Six, seven yers ago when you made eye contact with some you would say hello people would respond but today if you say hello to someone in Park Slope they look at you like you have egg on your face.... Park Slope and Brooklyn Height both are not really all that bad if you are that type of bourgeoisie person.
Posted by: Amzi Hill at January 16, 2009 4:32 PM
I lived in Brooklyn Heights for years. I still think that the north Heights (the fruit tree streets, Middagh, and Poplar) has some of the prettiest blocks anywhere. In terms of restauarants, the Heights has never had that great a selection, but Henry's End is fabulous and has been there for years. Montague Street isn't worth it and will never be the same without Armandos, but I think living there has never been about going out to a different restaurant every night -- people have a more home-centered life.
Similarly, it was never about the public schools. No Heights kids ever went to public school until real estate prices got so insane. With St. Ann's, Packer Collegiate, Brooklyn Friends, etc., all in the Heights, it just wasn't something people thought of.
But PS 8 has made huge progress in recent years, as more "middle class" students are coming back (a la what happened to PS 321). It did get an F on its recent NYC report card, but these reports are so controversial I wouldn't really trust them. Check out the comments on insideschools.org for more info.
Personally, I prefer the Heights to Park Slope -- it's a smaller neighborhood and feels more intimate and the convenience of all those subway trains can't be beat. I think part of what makes some Park Slope people act so snobby and entitled is overcompensation for their not living in the Heights.
Posted by: babs at January 16, 2009 5:08 PM
BoerumResident has it right: if your life is primarily in Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights is for you. If you have a family or plan to start one and want a more family-friendly-oriented neighborhood, then Park Slope is the one to go with. It has the park (duh), a reasonable selection of good public schools, and a whole lotta families. Then again, BH can be family-friendly, too, especially if you are connected to the private school scene. So, there's a longer-term economic consideration, too, if you are family-minded.
I tend to think Brooklyn Heights : Upper East Side. Park Slope : Upper West Side. Anyone agree with me?
Posted by: Brooklyn Chicken at January 16, 2009 5:24 PM
I pretty much agree with all these comments. Plus let us not forget the amazing Park Slope food coop where one can be abused and get the best, fresh, never frozen Alaska salmon for $10 a pound ($30 elsewhere).
Posted by: mopar at January 16, 2009 7:12 PM
Brooklyn Heights. I also agree with the East side/West side comparison. Brooklyn Heights feels quieter and also seems a little less skewed toward young families/ school aged kids. There is less retail in Brooklyn Heights and much less in the way of food etc. So maybe that gives you a flavor. I like Brooklyn Heights for all the transportation choices. When I lived there, I traveled by subway, at all times of night and could go to Lincoln Center and come home by subway. I wouldn't do that on the goddamned C train now where I live, though Fort Greene has its own charms. I prefer the more tucked in feeling of Brooklyn Heights.
Posted by: donatella at January 16, 2009 7:21 PM
live in park slope, buy my kids go to school in bh.
it would be a heckuva lot easier for us to be in bh/cobble hill, because my hubby and i both work in midtown.
but the more time i spend in bh (because of school stuff) the less i like it. lots and lots of people/traffic. seems like a more transient community.
With kids, I want the park. I want the zoo. i want the easy walk to restaurants.
also, bh is very much a business district -- with the court house crowds -- which i think explains the bad retail on montague.
Posted by: add2make4 at January 16, 2009 7:49 PM
Thanks to everyone for these great observations. They're very helpful. I appreciate it.
Posted by: gordy at January 17, 2009 1:23 AM
The big downer for me for bh is its proximity to downtown bklyn and the courthouses. It's congested during the day and barren there at night. the restaurants cater to the courthouse goers and they are horrible. Even to get to much better Cobble Hill you must cross formidable Atlantic ave and all of its traffic. With the choice of shops, food and entertainment there really is no comparison. It's PS by a mile.
Posted by: doldrums at January 17, 2009 8:22 AM
The streetscapes in Brooklyn Heights are much more attractive, in my opinion. The streets are narrower, which makes it feel cozier and more intimate, and I really like the proportions between building heights and street widths, plus I think on whole its architecture is more appealing.
In terms of urban design it's much more like the West Village than the UWS.
Posted by: Sparafucile at January 17, 2009 12:17 PM
Cobble Hill by far. It's got the best of both neighborhoods !
Posted by: brownie77 at January 17, 2009 4:08 PM
Well,you received many comments/opinions.
I think there is a little suspense as to where you'll end up and some of the daily twists and turns you'll encounter in the purchase process during the "credit crisis"
I for one would be interested in what your decision will be.
Posted by: rk at January 17, 2009 5:42 PM
Thanks again. rk--I will definitely post in the forum once we've made our choice and take the plunge.
Posted by: gordy at January 17, 2009 8:47 PM
brooklyn heights, cobble hill, boerum hill are all much more neighborhoody than park slope in that you always run into people you know. park slope, you can fly under the radar. that's something i've noticed that has not been mentioned above.
Posted by: merchantress at January 18, 2009 3:47 PM
Is it fair to say that Brooklyn Heights is far more blue-blooded and rich than Park Slope? There's money in Park Slope, sure, but I think you feel it more in Brooklyn Heights. It's kind of intimidating for some people.
Posted by: bk14 at January 19, 2009 12:31 AM
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