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December 29, 2008
Tankless Water Heaters...Thoughts?
Hi - I'm thinking of replacing our electric water heater with an electric tankless model. (gas models are out of the question as venting would be difficult and likely not allowed in our condo.)
Our needs are pretty simple - 3 person family w/ one bathroom; washing machine, dishwasher, kitchen sink. We realize we may need to run new larger sized wiring to handle the increased amperage but we have our own 100amp 230v service panel in the apartment - located nearby the existing water heater.
Master Plvmber, have you done these installations and do you have a ballpark figure for labor costs? (either including or excluding the electrical work)
Anyone else have an opinion? I'm convinced we will save serious $$$ over time.
Comments
I'm ready to replace my water heater as well. I've been mulling this over for the past year, reading up on tankless heaters. I read a review recently in consumer reports, and I've decided to go with a 50 gallon tank heater. Each situation is unique, but the review estimated that for a typical household, it might take longer to recoup the initial cost than the expected life of the unit. At the very least, it seems like tankless are not yet the clear winner, so I feel safe going old school on this one.
Posted by: cornetor at December 29, 2008 11:34 AM
Tagaki is supposed to be the best and I've tried to get one. My plumber said that because the plumbing is in the basement it can't get vented properly. I've spoken to a few plumbers and haven't found one with real installation experience. You might do better to check Angies List for a plumber with tankless experience in NJ or on the Island. Good Luck - they are great from what I read. Think 2x before using Home Depot - they have them, but I'm not confident of their installers.
Please post if your efforts are successful.
Posted by: CH11231 at December 29, 2008 12:18 PM
Appoggiatura, (or Supporter is it?) I'm not a big fan of tankless water heaters but when I do install them, I tend to use them in conjunction with back up systems or buffer heaters to eliminate the temperature and pressure swings they tend to create that we Americans have a hard time dealing with.
My advice is to get a solid estimate on the electrical upgrade first. Then see if it's really worth doing.
Me:
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
Posted by: Master Plvmber at December 29, 2008 3:11 PM
I had one installed courtesy of the building that was put up next door to me. They had to replace my existing normal hot water heater as they put a 5 story building next to mine so the chimney no longer vented properly. I had a lot of problems with it. It was a Bosch and I was told not cheap. The hot water constantly cut out. I was using it in a 2 story brownstone - 3 adults and 2 kids. Eventually they replaced it with a standard direct-venting HWH. Mine was gas so i don't know if this info helps. However I have heard that Tagaki is the one to get.
Also after doing some research it seems that they are not as economical as they claim to be:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm
Hope this helps
Posted by: Juno106 at December 29, 2008 3:14 PM
Bosch SUCKS. I have a Bosch unit that CONSTANTLY turns off the hot water in the middle of a shower blasting you with ice cold water. Then you have to get out of the shower - with or without soap all over you to go to the closet down the hall and press the reset button because its giving an EA or EC error code. I have spoken with BOSCH - rude and totally unhelpful and keep telling me to call the installer - and the installer says they are problematic units and should be recalled but Bosch doesn't want to go to the expense. Just lookup Bosch EA or EC codes for tankless water heaters in Google. I'd say its 1 out of every 3 times and has been going on 6 months now. $2000 wasted plus I can't tell that my gas bills are any different than before.
Posted by: williamsburgguy at December 29, 2008 4:54 PM
Thanks for the comments everyone...
Juno106, do you know the exact model of the Bosch that was installed, or at least the amount of amperage heating it? I suspect some people have problems because they might not get a unit that is powerful enough to deal with our cold climate. Also, your place is definitely bigger w/ more water users...
Master P, the model I was thinking about is the Tempra 24 by Stiebel Eltron - It's about $650. but it does require 230v 60amp power. They claim it has NO temp swings! Have you used that model before? Good advice on getting an electrical bid first...The manufacturer also claims a 15-20% reduction of electricity used for water heating, so with the cost of electricity in NYC it could pay for itself within a few years.
Plus I just hate water heater tanks - they take up way too much valuable interior space in nyc...
Posted by: appoggiatura at December 29, 2008 5:20 PM
williamsburgguy,
i'm really sorry to hear that - bosch certainly isn't looking like a brand i'll be buying.
for what it's worth, my research so far indicates that electric tankless are supposedly better than gas, but i don't know why that is.
would you be willing to say how much the labor portion was?
thanks again...
Posted by: appoggiatura at December 29, 2008 5:30 PM
i installed a steibel eltron two phase unit in a one bedroom loft in tribeca...it needed a 2 phase 60 amp circuit, and as a remember ran around $1300 for the unit alone, and i charged the same for installation...the problem was that in the winter the incoming water temperature dropped to a level beyond the ability of the unit to heat it ..with tech support from the manufacturer, i was able to solve the problem by choking the flow rate to the unit...not my favorite solution, but it worked
Posted by: eman1234 at December 29, 2008 6:04 PM
It's ridiculous to install an electric water heater given today's rates. The comparisons you see are for 8c/kwh electric, we pay 22-25c/kwh! So they cost up to 2.5x that of gas. There's NO such thing as a "more efficient" electric heater, they're ALL 100% efficient.
Also, there's something wrong with the specs; 230v 60a = 14kw = < 75kbu, which can give you only abt 1.5 gals/min, which is very low. Barely enough for a shower.
Posted by: cmu at December 29, 2008 7:25 PM
eman, all the models i've seen online from steibel eltron are single phase...and way under $1,000.
the flow rate seems to be a big factor, i need to check that out..
here's the link to the tech info...
http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/techdata_tempra.html
cmu, yeah, i'd prefer to have a gas water heater but as my post states i'm forced to go with electric. the electric tankless models have supposedly been proven to use less electricity than traditional electric tanks. stiebel claims 15-20% less. [not efficiency, but actual usage.] that's why i'd like to make the switch, as i agree that electric rates are out of control. please do check the specs and tell us if you think they are questionable - i'm just trying to save money.
Posted by: appoggiatura at December 29, 2008 8:39 PM
eman, all the models i've seen online from steibel eltron are single phase...and way under $1,000.
the flow rate seems to be a big factor, i need to check that out..
here's the link to the tech info...
http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/techdata_tempra.html
cmu, yeah, i'd prefer to have a gas water heater but as my post states i'm forced to go with electric. the electric tankless models have supposedly been proven to use less electricity than traditional electric tanks. stiebel claims 15-20% less. [not efficiency, but actual usage.] that's why i'd like to make the switch, as i agree that electric rates are out of control. please do check the specs and tell us if you think they are questionable - i'm just trying to save money.
Posted by: appoggiatura at December 29, 2008 8:39 PM
i second cmu that electric is not the way to go. Electric IMO is just going up in cost as well. Natural gas is cheap. What about a good efficient boiler or tankless gas that doesn't need all the fancy venting. You know, one that can vent with a normal PVC tube because it is so efficient.
Posted by: gennaro at December 29, 2008 10:24 PM
sorry about the memory lapse regarding price, but a i did that job 3 or 4 years ago...plus i mark up all goods that i provide to clients by 30%, since i warrant the goods for a year and a half...if the client buys it for a lower price, let them call the company themselves and figure out why it doesnt work... in the case of electric on demand, look at the steibel charts carefully, and oversize if your electric service allows it.. you can also gang them to meet your needs, if that is an option
http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/chart_tempra.html
re electric needs
http://www.e-tankless.com/electric-tankless-installation.php
Posted by: eman1234 at December 29, 2008 11:30 PM
genarro, cmu, just to focus the conversation, the OP *requires* an electric heater...
Posted by: vanburenproud at December 30, 2008 7:20 AM
Thanks, vbp, I can read. But what's "required" may sometimes be in the eye of the poster.
OP: Note at 2.25 gal/min (1 shower) the temp. rise noted is 43deg, fine for summer (70->113) but not for winter. In winter you need 70-80 deg rise, and this heater cannot do it. 2-bath tankless typically need 150A.
Afa the actual energy usage is concerned tank vs tankless, there's debate on this. 15-20% savings is very questionable. Tank electric heaters have hardly any loss (the reason gas tankless may be better is that gas tanks have much higher standby losses), and that's the ONLY difference (ie the heating method is the same.)
Posted by: cmu at December 30, 2008 5:29 PM
i've decided against going tankless. even if i had 200 amp electrical service i wouldn't do it based on all the negative feedback i've read.
in theory its a great idea but obviously these units need a lot of juice and the cost of providing that electrical upgrade defeats the purpose...
oh well, thanks again for chiming in everyone...
Posted by: appoggiatura at December 30, 2008 11:32 PM
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