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December 16, 2008
Stop Work Order / DoB Bureaucracy
Kind of a long story, but I'll do my best to keep it short.
Back in April, my business partner and I rented a warehouse in Gowanus with the intention of building partitioned rooms (what we're using it for isn't important). We started doing the work ourselves without permits, an admittedly bonehead move on our part. We got slapped with a SWO shortly thereafter.
After a few months of dealing with an expeditor, an architect, and a contractor, we got our plans approved, paid the $5,500 (!) penalty, and got our permits to work. We thought it was a done deal.
Because this cost a ton of money, we figured we'd wait a couple of months to generate more cash before we moved on to our HVAC installation, also an expensive job. We already had plans approved in September, but just found a company we were happy with and signed a contract last week for a 15-ton unit on our roof. We went to expeditor, and he went to DoB to pull permits today. What they told him blew my mind. Apparently, we still have some civil penalty for almost $10,000 that is due, for a SWO that doesn't exist, or was already paid. What is going on here?!?!
I'd like to know if anyone else is completely fed up with the DoB being easily one of the most corrupt and money-hungry organizations in this town. I certainly am. It seems to me that people are quick to defend them, but I feel like everyone there is either on the dole or would like to be. Is it possible to make it what it's supposed to be, i.e. an organization that actually CARES about safety and enforcing code, instead of a bureaucratic greed machine? It's one thing to throw arbitrary fines at giant developers building huge condos on 4th Ave (it may not be right, but they have budgets for that), it's another to screw over small businesses who are just trying to build some walls and put heat in their buildings.
Any advice, Brownstoners? I'm at a loss. I'm about to throw in the towel and move to Nebraska or something.
Also, why is there not a category on here for the DoB? They are the source of SO MANY problems...
Comments
I'd suggest writing to a couple of the NYTimes reporters that cover real estate to see if they'd like to do an expose-type story on the DOB. Then threaten the higher-ups at DOB with this story...seriously.
Posted by: bk14 at December 16, 2008 5:02 PM
Wow, I am so sorry that this happened to you. It is a tough lesson that you're not above the law. So, is the real question: Are the fines justified? If they are incorrect, you can probably bring it to someone's attention and get the mistake corrected. If they are legitimate then I guess you have to pay the price that everyone else, who is doing work legally in the city, must pay.
It is incomprehensibly expensive to build and renovate in the city. I have never really been able to figure it out. I am currently adding a 750k kitchen. How is that even possible?
Good Luck. It sucks.
Posted by: superstooper at December 16, 2008 5:22 PM
A 750k kitchen? You mean 75k, right? And that seems very high as well...
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at December 16, 2008 5:33 PM
Good question. It's a good thing that my expeditor and I are both fastidious record-keepers, because I'm pretty sure they just biffed it up and didn't record our original fine payment (Actually $5,565 with another $397 filing fee: I just found the receipt). Because it's been so long (the SWO was issued on April 29), I think they've doubled the penalty for what they THINK is a non-payment (or some other arbitrary and no doubt archaic code they continue to stick to).
Ugh. 750k kitchen, you say? Want to buy a business while you're at it? We could have done all this three times over with that kind of cash...
Anyway, yeah, you're right: it DOES suck. Maybe I'll follow bk14's advice. Even better, I have a few friends who are Assemblymen. Who knows, maybe I'll become a crusader against the DoB and force the FDNY to take over their duties. Okay, now I'm just rambling. I'm still reeling from this fine news. I hope it's just a mistake, but I'm not holding my breath.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 16, 2008 5:45 PM
I wish they were on the take. Then you could just pay them off. Be cheaper in the long wrong.
I'm doing a gut reno in the SS and have had zero major problems with the work (the usual minor ones, of course).
However I have just failed another plumbing inspection cuz the inspector insisted the boiler can't vent thru the chimney. Had he turned to the next page in the manual, he would have seen that it could.
He was 100% dead wrong but does the DOB correct their errors fro free? No, I had to hire an engineer (who I had to personally show WHY the DOB was wrong) and my expeditor to go get the objection removed. I can't wait to get the bill for fixing the city's f/u.
Posted by: denton at December 16, 2008 6:31 PM
denton, that's unbelievable.
I mean, I TOTALLY believe it, but I have to remark at the utter inefficiency of this organization.
Is there NOTHING that can be done about it? Is it just too big, too broken.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
I'm sorry the DoB is what it is.
Ugh.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 16, 2008 6:51 PM
nothing personal, but you made your own bed when you started construction without a permit...why do you think that legitimate contractors have to charge the prices that they do?..welcome to new york
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 7:03 PM
@eman1234
Hence my comment that it was "an admittedly bonehead move." Don't worry, though: your eye-rolling condescension didn't go unnoticed.
Ahem. Since then, we have done every last thing on the level. We have paid our civil penalty, and hired licensed contractors, electricians, plumbers, riggers, HVAC...everything is legitimate, so save your snotty "welcome to new york" comments for someone who deserves them, and learn how to capitalize, punctuate, and provide actually useful feedback in forums.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 16, 2008 7:48 PM
blow me
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 7:52 PM
honestly, wasn't being too condescending...but it is always a really bad idea to think that you can get away with doing things on the fly...you describe yourself as a musician/ realtor in brooklyn for 10 years.. its not like you are some starry eyed kid from nebraska.. you should know better
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 7:57 PM
good luck w/ the project..what is it btw?
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 8:04 PM
Fair enough, but again, that's why I immediately copped to it not being the smartest thing I'd ever done. And honestly, I'm only a realtor in the sense that I've rented a few apartments. I'm licensed, but getting a real estate salesperson's license in this state requires no knowledge of what requires permits and what doesn't. We figured we could do all of the work ourselves, and asked a lot of professionals who would know whether or not they thought permits were necessary. They all said they thought we could get away with it without them (including our landlord). So, yes, we knew the risks going in, and we totally got busted, but we paid for that and did the work to correct it legitimately, so that all is kind of beside the point.
The point is that now the city is trying to make us pay double for a penalty we've already paid, which really chaps my ass because it's indicative of a system that is so damaged that it can misplace thousands of people's dollars, people who sometimes don't have a budget to deal with it. Luckily, we have overhead for this kind of thing, but not much. If we can't show them that this extra fine is BS and they force us to pay, we'll be SOL for quite a while.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 16, 2008 8:06 PM
Music rehearsal studios. And, thanks. Sorry for calling you snotty.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 16, 2008 8:08 PM
if you have the documentation of the initial fine payment,you can get the mistake taken care of after a few kafkaesque hours of waiting in endless lines at the dob, whether by you (if you have the tolerance) or your your expediter...but believe me it is way more user friendly than it was 20 years ago when i came to nyc and there were rows of briefcases at the nyc dob at 7am holding the expediters places in line..hope that you are soundproofing all your walls and floors appropriately and isolating the hvac systems between rooms
good luck
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 8:21 PM
wow
you trusted your landlord?...lol...it reminds me of a story from when david walentas was dumbo's slumlord instead of the lionized developer he is today...artists would rent his spaces and see a radiator in the loft, assuming that there was heat provided..winter would come around and it would become literally freezing... walentas would tell the artists " does it say in your lease that there is a boiler in the building?"
Posted by: eman1234 at December 16, 2008 8:32 PM
Putnamdenizen: Not to make the post about me, but by "kitchen" I meant whole new structure, radiant heat, curved glass, a copper roof etc. . . not just cabinets and painting.
BrooklynBear: That is fantastic news. You've inspired me to change some of my lawless ways in the New Year. Thanks.
Posted by: superstooper at December 16, 2008 11:14 PM
BrooklynBear - I feel your pain. Something should be done! The DOB is corrupt!
Posted by: troll at December 17, 2008 9:45 AM
I think the fee collection for the DoB goes through the ECB/DoF. This sounds like a clerical error. Did you send a notarized Certificate of Correction when you initially paid the fine for the Stop Work Order violation? I think you can straighten this our with a letter to DoB and ECB with attached copies of your canceled checks. Send copies to your Council Person and the Mayor's Office,too. Also, I would call the Council Person's office and ask for their advice so that you're on their radar.
Posted by: Bessie at December 17, 2008 10:11 AM
Kitchen sounds lovely. Just reminds me how the internet can bring together people living on whole different planes of existence. Me, I just patched the radiator in my kitchen. Let's hope its not leaking anymore. My boyfriend really, really doesn't want to go with me to Franklin and Myrtle to buy a new (used) one and carry it upstairs.
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at December 17, 2008 12:59 PM
I have some radiators that I'm taking out if you want one or more.
Posted by: superstooper at December 17, 2008 3:53 PM
Putnamdenizen: Oh, the radiators are in Clinton Hill. If you're interested 917-620-4084.
Posted by: superstooper at December 17, 2008 3:57 PM
UPDATE:
So, my expeditor went to 210 Joralemon today, and called me at around 1pm. Apparently, they totally f'ed up and didn't enter the original civil penalty payment into the system, but for some reason I still had to pay $297. It kind of feels like they were just throwing a high number out there, and when they learned I couldn't afford it, they were like, "Whaddya got on ya, kid?"
Bastards. I'm still gonna take them down someday, but I have a business to run in the meantime.
Thanks for all the convo / kind words, Brownstoners. You all rule!
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 17, 2008 5:02 PM
Congrats! Power to the people!
Posted by: superstooper at December 17, 2008 6:15 PM
I have a similar story and I am completely fed up with the DOB. I was given a stop work order but written on the SWO it stated that painting plastering moulding and doors were still allowable only no plumbing and electrical... Ok so we continued painting etc. About a week later a second inspector comes by and give a second full SWO and a 2000- fine for working while there is a SWO on the property.
We have a hearing date, go to the hearing and ask for a postponement, just get a notice in the mail stating that we failed to show up for our hearing and now our fine is 8000k....I feel so disgusted by the entire experience!
I have no problem paying a fine for work without a permit - but 2 fines for work we were specifically told we could do and for not showing for a hearing that we were at makes me crazy!
Posted by: katiem633 at December 17, 2008 10:38 PM
Katie
That totally sucks. My only advice is to hire an expeditor. It sucks that they even have to exist, but they tend to have ways of maneuveringthe DoB in ways that sane folk like you and me would never think of.
This whole experience makes me wonder if anything would ever really get done in this town if it were 100% government sanctioned.
My guess is no.
Posted by: BrooklynBear at December 17, 2008 11:43 PM
look for it to get even more expensive as the city tries to get more money out of the dob as a fee generator in line with the parking cops
Posted by: eman1234 at December 19, 2008 11:42 PM
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