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December 23, 2008
st. george staten island
I am about to buy this house in St. George Staten Island, but am mixed about whether i should go the full way. What do you all think about St. george? will my brownstoner name soon be StGeorgeSucks?
Comments
I lived in St. George for less than one year, nearly 40 years ago. I loved overlooking the water traffic and the remarkable views of lower Manhattan. St. George is home to many dedicated architectural preservationists. I'm sure there have been *some* changes in the last 40 years but, if you're not already aware of it, my biggest caveat is that your life will be ruled by the ferry schedule (where a 1 minute train delay will result in 30 minutes to 1 hour wait for next ferry). If you're the kind of person who prefers a restaurant row over air and light, I doubt you will be happy in St. George. Though this article is dated, you might want to read: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402E3DD1F3BF930A25753C1A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3
Posted by: vinca at December 24, 2008 1:01 AM
You have a car, right?
Posted by: pattunia at December 24, 2008 4:10 AM
I like St. George. You ARE on Staten Island which means that hyou have to drive. You need a car. You are right near the ferry which is good, I don't know if you can walk - you won't want to be walking far in cold weather like this and you need to know where you are walking in St. George. I don't want to scare you, but there is some crime over there. Also, if you go into Manhattan by ferry, the ferrys run every hour after a certain time This is all bad. BUT it is pretty there, beautiful housing stock on the North Shore, you are near Sailor Snug harbor which is great; there is a great sense of community and some really lovely areas. St. Paul's Avenue in nearby Stapelton is a historic district filled with gorgeous Victorian houses, one more beautiful than the other. I bet that house that you are buying is a nice price too. Good luck!!!!
Posted by: donatella at December 24, 2008 9:03 AM
We fell in love, love, love with a house in Stapleton that was a huge victorian and people thought we were nuts.
The bottom line with our story is that we continued to look in both SI and Brooklyn, found a very diamond in the rough here in Brooklyn and have been lucky enough to stay.
I really liked St. George, Snug Harbor, the ferry, etc. Parks a plenty.
Downsides: lack of public schools (if that matters to you). SI on the whole uses private parochial schools more than publics. We heard that a new charter school is coming in but that didn't make me feel a ton better. Driving and the attendant traffic, the bridges get backed up, its not pretty.
At the end of the day, we weren't sure the isolation was for us. There didn't seem to be much of a sidewalk culture.
If that's not important to you I say go for it. Especially if you love the house. I thought values were very strong overall.
GL!
Posted by: Brooklyn11218 at December 24, 2008 10:39 AM
I have a story very much like that of "Brooklyn11218". When we were looking for a house, in the early '70s we considered both S.I. and Brooklyn. The first house that we REALLY liked was a beautiful Victorian in (IIRC) Ft. Wadsworth. We had previously looked in Stapleton, St. George, and various other neighborhoods within a couple of miles of the ferry. I was working in lower Manhattan at the time and bicycling to work from the South Slope. Those areas would have been almost as easy a commute by bike and ferry. Anyway, when it came time to make a bid on the house we liked we did some hard thinking and decided that we really didn't want to leave Brooklyn. One factor was that the house we liked was one of a few Victorians, surrounded by somewhat newer houses, but our love of Brooklyn was even more important. Had we known about the St. Paul's Ave. (aka Mud Lane) section of Stapleton that donatella mentions things might have been different, but we only discovered that beautiful area a few years ago.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 24, 2008 11:16 AM
Yes, it is true that the borough is schooled through the parochial school system to a large extent, and really can't speak for the public schools. The parochial schools are very good if you are open to that. The north shore of Staten Island is special. It is the south shore which grew up in a helter skelter way after the Verazzano Bridge opening in 1964. I used to live in an area which was almost farmland in the 50s and 60s, actually the part of staten island which became the famous and disgusting Fresh Kills landfill (i.e. garbage dump, now closed) used to be truck farms which fed the metropolitan area and had a local huge farmers market. Staten Island was the sticks and was gorgeous with swaths of forest and farmland, I guess like Long Island -- then the bridge came and changed everything. South Brooklyn poured into the south shore of staten island and for the most part, the housing from that time is gross. However, the North Shore where you are looking is really unchanged from the old days and filled with beautiful housing stock and well established communities. It ain't Brooklyn though which I love heart and soul, but it is very underrated in my book.
Posted by: donatella at December 24, 2008 11:24 AM
Very interesting, Donatella. Thank you.
Posted by: mopar at December 24, 2008 12:18 PM
It seems Staten Island's historic Northern areas Donatella describes has potential to be a big artists community. People who don't commute daily and who need a home studio. Those neighborhoods could organize and try to build a wider awareness of their area in the arts community. Actually a couple years ago I did read about a Manhattan artist couple who bought a historic warehouse building on Staten Island to be their live/work home, because they couldn't find an as affordable large live/work space in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
Posted by: traditionalmod at December 24, 2008 1:27 PM
It seems like SI is a better option than moving to a true suburb like NJ.
Posted by: slick at December 24, 2008 1:58 PM
I grew up in Staten Island. I lived there for 24 years and headed to NYC, then to Brooklyn. We lived on the North Shore. To me it is the best area in Staten Island. I loved St. George. It is the best area for resturants, culture (yes there is a bit of an art scene), there is a green market there on Saturdays, and very close to the ferry. The New York Times did an article about St. George saying that it's become a starving artists haven because no one can afford Williamsburg any more. St. George also has its own historic distric with beautiful homes.
There was talk of a trolley running back and forth along Richmond ave to take people back and forth to the ferry. Also there is a group of people in St. George trying to form a food coop. St. George was always known as where the artsy fartsy people hang out.
But, schools will be an issue. I'm not sure of any good schools in that area. There are some housing projects not far from St. George where most of the crime in Staten Island happens called Park Hill.
I do know that the council members are trying to pour some money into the areas because of its potential.
My husband and I always said that if we have to move back to "the rock" (a S.I. nickname) we would look in St. George or the North Shore. Good luck in whatever you decide.
Feel free to ask any questions about the rock as I still find myself there once a weel to visit family.
Posted by: italiana71 at December 24, 2008 3:22 PM
Sailor Snug Harbor has artist studios where artists work, classes, and regular exhibitions. It actually does have a thriving arts community on the North Shore. You can get a lot of space there. I agree that it is much better than living in other suburbs, like parts of NJ, because taxes are low, low, low. If you have school age kids, that is a challenge if you don't want to go to Catholic school, but there are a few private schools. Also there is a special public school for exceptional students, Petrides, and it accepts both gifted students and learning challenged students with a very progressive kind of orientation. I am also like Italiana71 - I go there all the time to see family -- I also moved away in my early 20s to live in Manhattan, then Brooklyn. When in my 20s, I was oh so sophisticated and had to get the hell out of there, but in my current who gives a shit phase of life, I actually really love it.
Posted by: donatella at December 24, 2008 5:59 PM
My sister and Mom live down the street from Snug Harbor and it is nice. My sister belongs to the Unitarian church on Clinton Ave., good people. Artsy and chill, it's a very nice vibe there.
Still, ya need a car. And the schools kinda suck. But if your kid is bright, things look up once they go to high school. You got choices. My nephew is commuting to a high school in Manhattan for music, for example.
Posted by: pattunia at December 25, 2008 4:19 AM
Don't get me started.
I lived in Staten Island until I was 32. I lived in St. George the last 6 years of that time, on St. Mark's Place, dragging my wife (then girlfriend) out there from Forest Hills in Queens against her will.
The talk of St. George becoming the "new Williamsburg" or "new East Village", etc. has been going on FOREVER and has NEVER happened.
Real estate boom after real estate boom has come and gone with no lasting positive affect on that area or any part of the borough.
I go to Staten Island to visit relatives often and sometimes drive through my old neighborhoods (I'm from New Dorp originally).
Seeing it now, at 39, it upsets me that I waited so long and spent so much of my life there.
Every once in a while I take someone to SI who has never been and they are invariably taken by its tree-lined streets and hills and neighborhood feel, but you have to spend time there to appreciate the special brand of attitude that goes along with living on SI.
Staten Islanders are uniquely territorial and confrontational. You don't need more evidence than to look up the stories of people who've had their tires slashed or the occasional shooting over one person parking in front of another's house overnight or the nearly-weekly bias crimes committed by the teens and 20-somethings of the full 2/3-majority Italian population.
Driving around the island is frustrating as the many single-lane roads were simply not built to accommodate the hundreds of new track houses in old neighborhoods with their multiple-car households. That frustration is evident in the constant horn blaring and finger giving all around you as you make your way.
So.....
I could go on. Most of my friends are ex-Staten Islanders who "got out" as we say and are now Brooklyn and Manhattanites.
We have this conversation often and compare notes and laugh about how our lives and attitudes have improved since our departures, but what we all agree on is that St. George is as good as it gets on The Rock as far as culture is concerned.
St. George is also the ONE place where you could conceivably get away without a car. And diversity actually works in that one neighborhood as opposed to the resistance it meets in the southern sections.
There are truly beautiful homes there and the views of Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty and bridges are really special.
The convenience of the Staten Island Ferry is excellent but the schedule kind of sucks.
You can do worse, but know what Staten Island is before making a move like this.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at December 25, 2008 12:29 PM
>>>>>But, schools will be an issue. I'm not sure of any good schools in that area. There are some housing projects not far from St. George where most of the crime in Staten Island happens called Park Hill.<<<<<
Hey italiana, this was a nice, not so subtle way of letting this person know that he might be forced to endure (gasp!) Hispanics and African Americans, no?
"Good schools?" Don't you mean WHITE SCHOOLS? Code words such as this were out in the 70's, dontcha think?
I am of the opinion that you owe me, and the other Hispanics on this board an apology.
Posted by: Demander of Respect at December 27, 2008 10:28 PM
Cant we skip the discussion of racist overtones every time the quality of schools are discussed?
With few exceptions, NYC does a bad job of educating poor kids. These kids are overwhelmingly members of a minority group. For the kids stuck in those schools, it really sucks b/c it makes getting a good education much harder. For parents with better options, it's an important factor in making school decisions.
Posted by: slick at December 28, 2008 3:54 AM
Dude, her screen name is "italiana." She is using racist code words, and you accuse ME of racist overtones? Yeau....OK.
By the way, I don't need your explanations about NYC schools. I attended them as white people were heading for the white hills. Now, I am a Princeton Grad, a law student, and I am still a victim of racism.
You want to get along with the communities that you people are invading? Stop telling us what to do, and stop with the code words.
I have a feeling that there can be some good dialogue on this board if people like you are willing to stop talking down to hispanics. It might be too late for italiana.
Posted by: Demander of Respect at December 28, 2008 9:10 AM
Don't call me a racist when you don't even know me.Now, I'm offended. I stated that there is a lot of crime in those particular projects. I base that statement on crime statistics. I made no mention of anyone's race, color, creed, sex, etc. YOU DID and that's racist!
Good schools are based on test scores. Read the tests scores for those areas and tell me what a bad or good school is. AGAIN I made no mention of anyone's color, skin, creed, sex, YOU DID. That's racist.
Personally, if you knew me, you would never call me a racist. Yes, my screen name is Italiana. Being proud of your nationallity doesn't make you hate others. Appently Demanding Respect from people does.
peace,
Stefania
Posted by: italiana71 at December 28, 2008 2:27 PM
Just dont base your decision off of other peoples opinions...if you ask most transplants (people from outside NYC) they will tell you not to go to SI and that you MUST live in an area with quick access to the city...if you ask most people here in Brownstoner they will tell you to move to a downtown Brooklyn area where there are Brownstones (although Im surprised no one here has complained yet!). I just bought a house in Bay Ridge BK and I had many people tell me that Bay Ridge is like living in Long Isand...so dont listen to other people. The truth is (in my opinion) in that what ever boro you live in you still have rather quick access to Manhattan if you need to go there at all. Im a producer and I have a studio in the city...but I do all my work in my studio in my house in Bay Ridge...so I dont even need to go to the city every day! ..So for me I just wanted back yard and driveway and I got it in BR.
Posted by: nybk01 at December 28, 2008 5:05 PM
Nybk01 gives good advice. One idea is to spend some time in the area and just ask people questions -- in the delis, dog walkers, people around the area you are considering buying. But it is a good idea to collect info from everyone, on this site as well, because as you can see, man of us have an intimate sense of Staten Island and its history. And Ms. Stephania, we have learned that there are some posters who out of some odd sense of something attempt to inflame innocent providers of help and information. We wish them well - happiness in life and the respect they deserve, even if they don't know quite how to ask for it.
Posted by: donatella at December 28, 2008 5:42 PM
Sure donatella, keep condoning blatant racism. Anything is OK as long as you get us out of your way, right?
Posted by: Demander of Respect at December 30, 2008 2:30 PM
I live around the corner from the house that you are planning to buy and perhaps we might be neighbors? I too am a former Manhanttanite/Brooklynite transplant. I moved to Staten Island about 7 years ago and the quest for bigger more affordable space in NYC brought me here, apart from the fact that I also adore old houses which historic St. George offers at bargain prices considering its close proximity to the city and water views to hoot about. I don't have kids and so the school system does not concern me. I have mixed feelings about living in Staten Island and the cultural scene is relatively quiet and mild although it is percolating with various mix of people moving into the neighborhood. However, since it is so close to Manhattan/Bklyn and is an easy commute by ferry or car, I don't feel that isolated and really love being inside my own spacious home which is my sanctuary away from the madness of the city. Personally, parts of Bklyn is really depressing and scary and in comparison, I find Staten Island prettier, safer, greener and it is a place that offers many pleasant surprises.
Posted by: schin10301 at December 30, 2008 8:40 PM
5 yrs ago we left Brooklyn. We moved all my family to Staten Island to have more open space, fresh air but it was nightmare. My kids came home from school crying punched and knocked down by other kids. Talk to police or school adm does nothing. Very racist white kids with baggy pants falling off there. Hate asians. Afro american spanish kids were nice good but white kids were big problems. We get the hell out of there and moved back to Brooklyn last year.
Posted by: KondoKong at January 12, 2009 9:30 AM
I feel for you and you children Mr. Kondo.
As a Hispanic law student, the racism I face is generally more of the passive aggressive sort. I can't quite understand it either because I try to be friendly to white people. As a matter of fact, I dated a few white women.
Yeah, I get smug looks and yuppies mutter under their breath when I pass by. Do you think it is because of inter-racial dating? That is so infair!!!
By the way, my tastes are starting to change. Sarah Palin might not be so smart, but I find myself turned on more and more to older women since the election.
Anyway.....good luck!!!
Posted by: Demander of Respect at January 12, 2009 6:15 PM
It's too bad about some of the negative comments on here. My family and I moved to SI from too pricey Williamsburg about 7 years ago. We are renovating a victorian rowhouse in Stapleton and previously lived in St George. It is a great community of preservationists and artists. And don't let people scare you about safety. It's fairly tame. fyi there is a FANTASTIC new pre-k through 5th grade public school on St Pauls ave and there is a K-8 charter school in the works. Both schools are the result of massive community effort. It's a great place. Times are changing and you found a beautiful house that will be a great investment. Welcome to the neighborhood!
Posted by: sirowhouse at January 21, 2009 10:35 PM
What is the deal with Demander? A law student with such poor grammar exploring a victim complex triggered by facts? Is that for real? Park Hill is a seriously dangerous community in crisis where those who live there talk about wanting to 'back themselves in and out of the building' quickly out of fear of turning their backs. And it's a very real factor in determining whether you want to move into a neighborhood nearby.
I love St. George but people are right to be concerned about the schools. The local school is the worst in Staten Island. At the end of every year, parents are sent a letter that allows them to request a transfer because the school is doing so poorly.
There is a new school for select grades but we opted for home schooling. My experience with elementary public schools in New York has been a nightmare and all of the mothers/teachers I have spoken with feel the same.
Folks either feel trapped or are actively seeking another school or method, but I have not met anyone who is satisfied. Our local school has a high concentration of gang connected parents and that translates into very young children using a vocabulary and posturing that is inappropriate/violent/disturbing/damaging. (For example, my six year old came home from the local school one day talking about a child in his class who wanted to be a pimp. We have since moved him out of the school as that was only one incident among many that happened in a very short time.)
While twenty-something friends that live here with no children are very much enjoying themselves, when you have children in a local school you have a condensed experience of your community through the vulnerable view of a child. If your community is thriving then your child will come home with lots of valuable *new* perspectives, and if your community is in crisis-as many are these days- your child may bring home a story of a child who wants to be a pimp. (Or as explained by my 6yo, "A person who sells women's butts for a living.")
On the other hand, we are very involved in the community and love the neighborhood experience in St. George. We know everyone on our block, in all the local shops, and at the neighborhood centers. It is not easy to find a community with the sense of coming together I feel we have. Between that and the existing structural potential of St. George as a waterfront community, we have a lot of hope for the direction things are going here.
But if I had known how serious the school issue was we may not have moved here when we did, and I definitely would not have made the mistake of enrolling my son in the local school for any length of time.
Posted by: Kachoo at February 26, 2009 3:23 AM
Hi everyone. Thanks for the comments. Just wanted to let you all know that I bought the house and it is better than I had expected. My neighbors were all inviting and everyone came to see me when I moved in. I didnt know about the museums and gallerys the neighborhood kept and was surprised when I saw them. There are so many nooks and crannies that I am finding around the area and am enjoying the city and verrazanno views. The resturants and bars, although we need more, are great, and the cafes and shops are pretty cool. The neighborhood has a feel all to itself and is very tight knit. I hear rumours of a charter school in the works and other things like a food coop and such that are also needed. I guess that I do have to change my name, not WilliamsburghII, instead maybe StGeorgeII, but I still have the coop and it still sucks, so my name I guess it will remain MyCoopSucks.
Posted by: MyCoopSucks at May 14, 2009 9:58 AM
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