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December 30, 2008
heat problem and tenants rights
This story is long but my question is mostly not what to do to fix the problem but rather of how to handle tenants.
When they moved we had one room (small bedroom) that was colder then other rooms. We warned them about this problem but they put kids in this room. Window in this room is relatively new, contractor replaced it 5 years ago, but window is not the best or most expensive. Last winter they supplemented heat with electrical heater ( room is 7X14, not very big ) and we decided to replace radiator. We thought that radiator was the main problem. We replaced radiator this season. Plumber did all calculations and put radiator that is lightly bigger than suggested for this size of the room.
Initially everything was fine. But then they started to complain about heat again. We keep 72 during day and hiked to 75 when they complained. We also checked radiator. Radiator is as hot as other radiators in this apartment! But room is really cooler. They claim that it is 53 during night but of course I did not check the temperature.
We rise heat every day when they complain. It is really hot in our apartment and in apartment on the second floor.
Third floor ( problem apartment ) is slightly cooler but not cold. I have a problem going there with a thermometer. I am afraid it will look like I do not believe our tenants and want to start an argument war. My guest it is around 69-70 degrees. But small bedroom is colder. We are not going to argue on that, we are looking for a solution.
I do not want to fight with my tenants, I completely understand that she want her kids to be warm. I suggested to go and insulate window. They put plastic on window but did not do a good job. I made an appointment to do this but then I had to cancel: I had to take my daughter to the doctor instead of sending her to school and then school break started. I promised to do this next Monday when my child will be back to school. But I understand that problem may be much deeper and insulating window is not going to fix it. May be we will have to insulate roof.
Also, we replaced front side windows in each apartment this fall. New windows are Marvin and suppose to be very efficient. So, as you see we are working on this.
But since I canceled my "insulation appointment" last Tuesday I got calls every day to rise heat. We keep now heat at 74-76 with thermostat in our apartment. I spent several late hours at night during this week in second floor apartment staining new windows ( as tenants went on vacation) and it was very hot on a second floor.
Finally today I gave up and after I got call from my 3rd floor tenant again to raise heat ( it was 73 degrees on my thermostat) and I softly suggested that they can sometimes use space heater.
I told her that we are really looking at solution, that I will go and insulate her window next Monday and my plumber is going to come over that Monday ( I made an appointment already) but I really overheat the whole house because of this small room ( other room in her apartment are just fine). I told her that I hiked heat to 76 now but may be she should consider using space heater from time to time.
She is not the nicest person to deal with. Last year, when she complained about heat and that she has a cold we did what we could rising heat and I brought her herbal tea. Several days later I was cleaning stairs and I found this box of tea thrown in a hallway.
This time she was not very nice either. She told me that she is not going to use space heater again. She told me that she spent extra $200 each months last year on electricity ( I do not know, we used to have all electrical heat in out former place and it cost us about $400 to heat triplex completely, including hot water and cooking during winter monthly. She had to warm up just one small room in addition to regular if not adequate heat.)
She complained that her children are thick from cold. I was very tempted to mention that it is not fair to blame low heat in apartment if toddlers do not wear hats outside. I could only imagine where our conversation would go after that, so, I kept it to myself.
She told me that she is not going to discuss heat problem with me again and she is passing this issue to her husband. He called me after that and wanted to come over to discuss this in person. He will e back from work in an hour.
Now I want your suggestions on how to handle this. I really want to fix this problem. We spent money on radiator replacement, we spent small fortune on new windows. But is this normal to just refuse to use space heater in this room till we find what is wrong? As I mentioned we can do at least something about this next Monday.
What should be my position during this conversation. I am trying to be really nice to my tenants but I had been taken advantage not once because of this.
Comments
You have to start by getting an accurate read of the temperature in the rooms. I know you said you want to avoid this but this will give you an idea as to whether or not they are even being realistic.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 5:27 PM
It would be the right thing to do, but it means that I question if they are telling the truth to start with. They say they have a thermometer and I would assume they are right. This room is obviously cooler then the rest of the apartment.
If it would be me I would move my kid to warmer room then start to sort things out. They prefer to scream on me.
OK, I took my blood pressure pill and I am ready for his visit.
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 5:49 PM
"If it would be me I would move my kid to warmer room then start to sort things out."
Correction:
If it would be me I would move my kid to warmer room thAn start to sort things out.
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 5:52 PM
I've used space heaters and the ceramic ones (as well as the oil filled radiator types) work quite well. Throw a few of them in there and offer to pay the difference in the tenants electric bill these months vs. the last few months average. It won't be more than a few bucks. Insulating the space between the top floor and the roof does accomplish alot and putting up a pice of plexiglass as an added layer in any skylight helps even more.
I use hydroxychlorothiazide and fosinopril for the other problem!!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 30, 2008 5:56 PM
Not to sounds stupid - but if it is very warm in the rest of the apartment .... why dont they just open the door and the difference in temperature will not be as significant.
I would also offer to pay for the difference in the electricity bill until the situation is taken care of, and I would let them know that you were in the 2nd floor apartment and it was very warm and you need to keep the enitire house comfortable- not just that one room.
Posted by: katiem633 at December 30, 2008 5:59 PM
Based on the numbers that I saw on this Forum I would assume that crawl space insulation would cost me about $1500-$2000 for a 65X20 roof. does it sound right?
Who would do the right job (so that ceiling will not collapse on my tenants and roof will not be damaged)? Is it doable during winter time ( when it is not cold)?
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 6:59 PM
the rest of the apartment on the 3rd floor is not very warm, about 69 degrees, but it is still colder in this small room.
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 7:02 PM
first of all , what kind of heat do you have...im assuming 1 pipe steam, but i could be wrong...get a heating professional to change the sizing on the air vents on the radiators if this is the case...it sounds like your system is severely imbalanced...and btw, your tenants just want to be comfortable... do not turn it into something personal
Posted by: eman1234 at December 30, 2008 7:29 PM
It sounds like the tenant is actively taking advantage of your nice-but-haphazard resolution style in which your primary goal seems to be Convincing Her That You Are A Nice Guy.
While this is a common resolution style for humans in general, it's a recipe for continued conflict in a tenant-landlord situation. You are giving her a lot of power because you are looking for her approval, and hoping that the approval makes up for the fact that the problem is somewhat relative--warm to some is too cold for others. She seems kind of hard-wired to take that power and run with it. The warmth of the apartment probably isn't the issue for her anymore. She's probably just trying to make you dance.
With that in mind, I would do whatever it takes to stop being nice and stop being haphazard in resolving the problem. Take away all her power by deciding exactly how you define the problem, how you are going to resolve the problem if it exists, and how you are going to deal with continued complaints. Then follow through mechanically, with no tea, no complaints, no daughter interruptions and no excuses, like it's a job.
Here's how I would do that:
1. Decide on a number of degrees that you think resolves the problem. She sounds awful, so I would choose the 68 degrees required by law and not a single degree more.
2. Make sure you are achieving that Goal Temperature by measuring the temperature in the apartment.
3. Follow through on insulating the window with plastic because you said you would.
3. Then write a letter that kindly, clearly and *perfunctorily* states what you are required to do, what you have done, and that you consider the problem resolved.
4. In this letter, also state clearly that because temperature is a somewhat relative sensation, future complaints will be resolved by determining the actual temperature with a thermometer and taking action to achieve temperature X.
5. Do not engage tenant in any other way about this issue. If she whines, makes passive-aggressive comments, asks her kids to complain for her, or otherwise tries to game you, stand like a stone and repeat the goal temperature to yourself in your head with a small smile on your relaxed, placid face.
When she complains again, don't do anything but the four steps. Don't turn it into a friendliness contest by trying to be nice when she complains. Don't give her tea. Don't get emotional--aim to be extremely perfunctory about this issue, so that there is nothing for her to latch onto but the *actual temperature in the apartment*, the *Goal Temperature*, and the difference between the two.
Expect it to get worse before it gets better. You are basically training her to stop doing something that you have in the past made really rewarding for her, so she's going to push your buttons like mad before she figures out it doesn't work anymore.
Good luck!
Posted by: vanburenproud at December 30, 2008 7:33 PM
Excellent advice, vbp. OP, you have to get this on an objective basis. If you're setting heat at 75 (7 deg above what we have!) you're spending a large amount of money to keep one difficult person still unhappy.
Posted by: cmu at December 30, 2008 8:30 PM
Perhaps the tenant has a reason for being unhappy? If the temperature in the room is truly 53 degrees and the landlord hasn't resolved the issue in over a year, she has a valid complaint and giving her some tea seems like a slap in the face. I think that sometimes landlords just want to collect their rent check and not deal with issues, but as a tenant if I'm paying you money to live in your apartment every month, you have to live up to your end of the bargain and ensure its livable. A 53 degree bedroom is not acceptable. I agree with others that your first step needs to be to verify the temperature in that room. If it's truly that cold, you need to come up with a solution ASAP.
Posted by: ppwgall at December 30, 2008 8:49 PM
I think vanburenproud gave you great advice. As per NYC heating code: "During heat season, residential owners with tenants are required by law to maintain an indoor temperature of at least 68 degrees Fahrenheit between 6:00 A.M. and 10:00 P.M. when the outdoor temperature falls below 55 degrees. Between 10:00 P.M. and 6:00 A.M., building owners must maintain an indoor temperature of 55 degrees when the outside temperature falls below 40 degrees."
I would buy something like this for $50: http://www.presentsforyou.com/chin00with1.html?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=00852
Install the sensors in her apt, put the reader in your apt and verify the temps over the next week or two (especially if we get another cold snap). The thermometer in the link even says it can record min and max temperatures. So you don't even have to wake up in the middle of the night.
Posted by: setancre at December 30, 2008 9:55 PM
ppwqall: if installing new radiator for room ($400 total), installing new windows (3K for 3 windows only for this apartment), rising heat above all city limits and paying extra money for this does not count - then we as landlords are not trying to resolve this issue.
We are working on this. This apartment is colder is general then the rest of the house. We told tenants about this before we rented apartment. Today tenant brought his log of temperature reading. It was one day when temperature was extremely low: 53 degrees for several hours one night. Mostly it was in high fifties/low sixties during most of the time in this room and low sixties/high sixties in the rest of the apartment.
Which is low, I absolutely agree. But we are not just sitting and doing nothing except collecting rent either. Today during our conversation tenant confirmed that radiator in that small cold room seems to be the hottest to the touch. I checked this room myself and there no visible holes or drafts except of somewhat drafty window ( but as drafty as my own old window that still awaits replacement).
Also, we had some of our own radiators removed in our apartment that is similar to theirs but on the first floor. We kept only 3 radiators and 3rd floor apartment has 6.
What i am trying to tell is that we are doing all the right things and still did not resolve problem completely. our plumber will be back from vacation next Monday and will come over to check the whole system.
What I suggested that they can use space heater till this time and we will keep heat higher, but not uncomfortably high (lower then 78-77).
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 10:19 PM
ppwqall: if installing new radiator for room ($400 total), installing new windows (3K for 3 windows only for this apartment), rising heat above all city limits and paying extra money for this does not count - then we as landlords are not trying to resolve this issue.
We are working on this. This apartment is colder is general then the rest of the house. We told tenants about this before we rented apartment. Today tenant brought his log of temperature reading. It was one day when temperature was extremely low: 53 degrees for several hours one night. Mostly it was in high fifties/low sixties during most of the time in this room and low sixties/high sixties in the rest of the apartment.
Which is low, I absolutely agree. But we are not just sitting and doing nothing except collecting rent either. Today during our conversation tenant confirmed that radiator in that small cold room seems to be the hottest to the touch. I checked this room myself and there no visible holes or drafts except of somewhat drafty window ( but NOT as drafty as my own old window that still awaits replacement).
Also, we had some of our own radiators removed in our apartment that is similar to theirs but on the first floor. We kept only 3 radiators and 3rd floor apartment has 6.
What i am trying to tell is that we are doing all the right things and still did not resolve problem completely. our plumber will be back from vacation next Monday and will come over to check the whole system.
What I suggested that they can use space heater till this time and we will keep heat higher, but not uncomfortably high (lower then 78-77).
Posted by: moskow_on_gowanus at December 30, 2008 10:19 PM
You are relying on a thermostat that when set to 75 degrees will bring your apartment to 75 and hers, lets say 65. Lets say the lag time is set for the boiler to kick back on at around 70 in your apartment. In the mean time her apartment has dropped maybe twice as fast so she is already down to 60 and pissed. This scenario will continue through the night increasing the difference until at some point you throw your windows open to scream and let some heat out. You are simply wasting oil. You need to either put adjustable air vents (or smaller) on the lower radiators or possibly eliminate some of them all together. Might it be possible that you have a 2 pipe system only on some of the radiators?
Posted by: mod squad at December 30, 2008 11:01 PM
Just as an aside, my current apartment has 2 bedrooms that are much colder than the rest of the building. We are on the top floor; my landlord hasnt made efforts as great as yours, but I think I've figured out the problem.
There is a large north facing wall made entirely of stone/concrete. This wall is always cold to the touch.
Posted by: slick at December 31, 2008 4:33 AM
Get the roof insulated! Yes, it's expensive, could be $2,500 depending on the size of your house, but it's totally worth it. Joey from Federal Conservation did the work at my house:
http://www.federalconservation.com/
He's an honest guy and, while not cheap, will not steer you wrong in terms of what you need. He could take a look at the room in question, too, and probably offer some ideas about why it's so cold. What you save in energy bills (72! wow, my house is set to 70 in the eves / 68 during the day, and it's really warm. None of my tenants ever complain about the heat) will more than make up for the insulation costs and the rest of the house won't be uncomfortably warm.
I believe this is work they can do this time of year and, if I'm correct (though a quick call to Joey will tell you), he'll do an inspection/estimate first.
Hope this helps. Good luck, stuff like this stresses me out too.
Posted by: herkimermaid at December 31, 2008 9:51 AM
I second Joey.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 31, 2008 11:39 AM
how about turning off a radiator on your floor or other floor where too hot?
Posted by: Petebklyn at December 31, 2008 1:35 PM
You can get a two part battery operated remote sensor with thermometer at Loews that you can screw to the wall in you tenants kids room. The kind you place in your backyard to tell what temperature it is outside. No wires. They have a memory feature that records the lowest temp for the day. You keep the read out in your place.
Posted by: IMBY at December 31, 2008 4:40 PM
The problem is that the house is poorly insulated. Homeowners thought that when they were buying multimillion dollar homes they were actually worth that amount. They thought the seller actually took the time and effort to modernize the homes with the latest comforts. All new home buyers please be very careful what you buy there are some real museums out there for sale.
Posted by: hannible at January 1, 2009 4:21 PM
If the tenant is so difficult, she might put ice on a thermometer that was left there. I'd go with my own thermometer when she complains. You are doing your best, and friendliness is important, but not all people appreciate it.
Has she invested in heavy drapes and carpet to help her children? My thermostat is at 68-69. Over 70 would be very uncomfortable for me, and cold is recommended for better sleep so it's not the worst situation possible, but I wouldn't want to live in 53 degree temperatures either. Colds come from germs, not temperature!
There are dangers with space heaters so I wouldn't support that, especially with children, but there are wall plug ins and paying the electric bill sounds good. Or, try different radiator valves that bring the heat to that radiator first - ask your plumber. The best idea is probably to insulate the crawl space/roof.
Wow she's sending her husband - sounds like an interesting event - maybe he's more understanding as he has to live with her and has probably been at the back end of her not being satisfied more often than not.
Good luck to the both of you.
Posted by: CH11231 at January 2, 2009 2:03 PM
As the tenant in question I am disappointed to read this post and to hear that moscow_on_gowanus feels we are unkind. I truly wish she had brought this to our attention directly, because we certainly did not mean to hurt her feelings.
Our needs are really simple here. The main apartment is consistently below the legal limit of 68 degrees. As moscow points out, the back room is colder, our typical measurements indicate 58-62 degrees throughout the day. We use the camping thermometer we have, and no, we don't doctor it in any way (we have absolutely no interest in anything other than bringing the apartment up to the legal minimum). If people here can suggest a better device for measuring the temperature, I'd appreciate the input, as all we're trying to do is get the apartment heated correctly.
What we've noticed here is that when the landlords turn up the heat, our apartment warms considerably, up to 67-69 in the main apartment and as high as 65.5 in the back room. Honestly, these numbers would be fine if we could achieve them reliably. The problem is that we only get to these numbers after we call to complain. Every day.
We do have a space heater, which we have been using regularly since we first reported the heating problem 13 months ago. We do feel that 13 months should have been enough time to resolve this issue, so if we are to continue using a space heater would like financial recompense (the $200 figure is roughly correct -- we did not use the space heater last month in order to calculate the difference in bills with and without the heater).
As for the rest: I'm not sure this is an appropriate forum, but I certainly didn't mean to imply that the cold caused the girls' illness (it was roseola -- a virus). But it was difficult keeping them warm in the apartment (64 degrees apartment-wide at the time of the conversation) so we asked if they could keep the heat especially high for the next few days.
The tea "incident" was apparently a huge misunderstanding! My wife was extremely grateful for the tea, and returned it by leaving it outside the door to moscow's apartment since she wasn't home. Someone must have knocked it into the hall by accident. I'm really sorry that she felt we tossed it there! I agree, it would have been unconscionably rude if we had. This sounds like a discussion we should have in person and not relevant to the heating problem.
For all the suggestions here, thank you -- it is very interesting to hear some of the possibilities. As tenants, we have a different perspective on some of this. We sympathize with the plight of buying a building that is poorly insulated and the difficulties of getting it up to code. To be blunt, however, this is not our problem. We just want it to be 68 degrees! Whether that's by reinsulating, replacing rediator valves, turning the heat higher, etc., we don't care. But we do know it can be done since when they turn the heat up it is warm enough up here.
We _don't_ want to take drastic measures. But 13 months is a long time, and we need to find some way to apply pressure to make sure this gets taken care of before another winter has come and gone. If anyone has thoughts on how to resolve these conflicts peaceably, please let us know. We like our landlords and don't want this to become a war.
Posted by: tenant_in_question_ at January 5, 2009 9:35 AM
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