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December 18, 2008
Crazy talk?
OK, to make a long story short, we found this Victorian two-family on the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border that we LOVE. Has almost every original detail, including the original kitchens, baths, and a speaking tube. Beautiful proportions, light, closets, you name it. (Not as fancy as a Stuyvesant Heights brownstone, but we like it.)
But then we had the inspection and found out it needs $80,000 of repairs. (Plumbing, electrical, structural, plaster. Has unknown amount of termite damage.)
We could only do it with a 301K FHA type loan.
Is this crazy talk? Altogether, it would cost about the same as buying an uglier house that did not need repairs.
(Um, except the mortgage rate would be 6.5 instead of 5 percent...)
Particularly interested to hear from anyone who has rehabbed an old house and Montrose Morris: Do all houses with original kitchens/baths -- which we want -- need this much work, especially plumbing, or should we keep looking?
When we turned on the water during the inspection, it started to rain. (Three fixtures sprung leaks.)
Are we getting in over our heads?
Comments
Hey Mopar:
If the house speaks to you, you should go for it. Try and get some of the repair costs back from the seller. Where did you get the 80k figure from? I wouldn't be surprised if that were quite low.
Posted by: denton at December 18, 2008 6:26 PM
I would negotiate that down too for sure...thats part f the game. Good luck!
Posted by: nybk01 at December 18, 2008 6:36 PM
Mopar, my experience in the 2 houses I've lived in here in Brooklyn, and the one I grew up in upstate, tells me that any house with old plumbing is going to need to be significantly repaired, or better yet, replaced. I'm surprised I don't need therapy, or go into screaming fits whenever I see pooled or running water anywhere. I've had the absolutely worst luck with plumbing and leaks.
That said, I still say go for it, if the house, as Denton says, speaks to you. I understand that completely. I don't think the originality of kitchens or baths makes the problems worse, it's really the history of repair by previous owners, someone who really kept on top of repairs could have done it, or not, in either an original or redone rooms. Personally, I'd rather have the original features and a ton of problems over better plumbing and a POS kitchen or bath. Replacing the details is, of course, possible, but is as expensive as the plumbing anyway.
Are you planning to do any of the work yourselves? Not necessarily plumbing, but finishing work? You could save some bucks there. And if you have to expose framing, it's always easier to repair plumbing and electric work when the walls and floors are open, anyway.
I'd try to negotiate, but if you love the house, by all means go for it!
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 18, 2008 7:14 PM
While there's nothing I like more than seeing someone restoring a house to it's former glory I would make sure I get an engineer/GC in there prior to purchase to give you realistic numbers as to what this reno. will really set you back. I'm sure the Brownstoner's can reccomend someone to you. 80K seems low to me as well. You have got to negotiate that down.
Plus it'll be nice to know once you're done that all the plumbing and electric won't be giving you headaches.
Good Luck! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
Posted by: TownhouseLady at December 18, 2008 7:24 PM
Sure, try to get some money off (in this environment, why not?) but otherwise, get it! You will want to make plans about where you will be living while these repairs are going on. Never underestimate how disruptive to your life work on your house can be! Especially if you are trying to move in at the same time!
Posted by: slopenick at December 18, 2008 8:14 PM
"Do all houses with original kitchens/baths...need this much work, especially plumbing"?
Mine did, although costs were lower 30+ years ago. We bought our house from the last of three sisters who had owned it for nearly 50 years. It had been neglected for MANY years and was empty for two years, after the owner went into a nursing home. It was a filthy mess, but virtually ALL the original details were intact We made the mistake of trying to live with minimal repairs to the (all lead) plumbing and ended up replacing it in three, stages over 10 years, at far greater cost with far more mess-I'd advise doing all plumbing work as soon as possible.
IMO, if you opt for an uglier house at the same price as this one with the repair, because it needs less work, you'll
Always have an uglier house. If original details and beauty are important to you, go with what you really want.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 18, 2008 8:23 PM
$80K sounds really, really low. I'd triple that, run a budget, include the savings you'll need for emergencies, and answer your question yourself. Only you know where your head is in relation to the water.
Posted by: vanburenproud at December 18, 2008 9:39 PM
I bought my all original Victorian complete with all lead pipe and 30 amp electrical service years ago. At today's prices, I'd think $80,000 in renovations is a very low estimate. You are better off having both the original detail and the knowledge that the plumbing and electric are new and if done properly, will be problem free. Go for it. You may have more costs upfront, but fewer problems in the future and you get to live with the original detail
Posted by: yaakovdoe at December 18, 2008 10:18 PM
I second the previous sentiment.
Better to have new plumbing done once correctly, than pay for someone else's botched job.
It is harder to restore when previous repairs have to be undone.
You will want to see if the 3-4-5" waste stack can be used still. Feeds, vents and fixtures can be changed, but the waste stack will add another 10-20K, depending if there are one or two sets (baths across from kitchens) Kitchens only will only need 2" no hub, cheaper and easier to fit than toilet waste bends, which have to be close to stack and cannot cross joists. (Your options are very small, unless there are high enough ceilings the floor below to have a dropped ceiling underneath.)
Posted by: brucef at December 18, 2008 10:46 PM
You already know you love the house...that's the easy part. The cost/numbers for repair are not so easy. Don't rely on the estimate provided by inspection. Make sure you get a really good contractor to walk through with you. That walk-through will give you a lot more information to negotiate price with the sellers. If it started to rain when you turned on the water, you need to look carefully into structural damage from leaks, and not just from termites. It sounds like you've found something you'll love, and that's a great reason to go for it. Just keep in mind that repairs can become far more expensive and involve far more of a learning curve than able to anticipate in advance.
Posted by: vinca at December 19, 2008 12:29 AM
Wow, you guys are unanimous. Original details are worth it, and we should increase our estimate of repair costs. This might be a first on Brownstoner.
A breakdown of costs:
*$10,000 replace and install boiler, maybe change to gas.
*$15,000 replace water supply pipes to second and third floors. Replace waste pipes to all three floors. Vent first floor kitchen sink to roof -- the vent was disconnected. (Stack is probably good. Other pipes have already been replaced. Most of the pipes are exposed.)
*$15,000 all new electrical three floors (and cellar).
*$3,500 replace 1/4 main beam (maybe more, extent of termite damage not known).
*$15,000 Plaster, paint, refinish three floors. (We could save $3,000 by doing one floor ourselves but it hardly seems worth it.)
*$7,000 replace 14 windows.
*$20,000 misc, such as further structural damage. Includes $1,000 to fix cement in front and back yards, which may be causing some leaking in foundation. Also, two stoves, one fridge, two washing machines, linoleum in two kitchens, basic light fixtures, need to buy and install two sets of selvage pocket doors, possibly two toilets and one $200 selvage wall-hung sink. And I forgot to include hookups for two washing machines -- both are next to the stack. How much does that cost? Oh, and there was asbestos cladding around all the pipes in the basement, which was simply ripped off, and pieces still remain and need to be removed properly and sealed. No idea what that costs.
We will strip one tin ceiling, two dish cupboards, and some tile ourselves.
The work needs to be done in one month so we can move and rent out the top floor apt asap.
We will have more than one year's carrying costs for the whole house in reserve in cash.
We are not changing a thing.
Years down the road we'll try to strip the woodwork, replace the front door with an original, etc., doing the work ourselves and using our monthly salaries. There is also a lot of wallpaper on the second floor we may need to strip and replaster ourselves over time.
Whaddya think? Sound realistic?
Thanks so much, everyone. You are all invited over for cookies.
Posted by: mopar at December 19, 2008 12:30 AM
I've never paid for any significant work in NY so I can't say whether that is the going rate or not.
However, that would be entirely realistic for London which I would not expect to be significantly cheaper than NYC.
Perhaps these prices are a pointer to a bigger problem. You're not paying to line the pockets of the contractor, you're paying to get a job done. There is definite skill required to do these jobs but none of them are rocket science. Is there a massive shortage of plumbers, builders, plasterers and general labourers that I don't know about?
Posted by: the chicken at December 19, 2008 5:24 AM
I did this last year, near to where this house is but on the Bushwick side of the border. Our house is similar, 2 fam. all original details including kitchen and bath (these however were probably added after the turn of the cen. since they didn`t have that kind of plumbing in 1870), and I say go for it. It is so much more valuble, if you are into antique stuff, to go through this process than to just get something else to save a little money. But it is not only stressful, it can be traumatic. The more realistic you are the less it will overwhelm you, so for starters, it`s going to take longer than one month. Concentrate on the rental apartment first. Work from the top of the house down if you can. What about the roof?Also, I can`t imagine that the amps in this place have been upgraded so there`s another couple of thousand right there. This house sounds rare, and if you feel that you really should save it and you feel a personal connection to it than you probably will make good decisions and have the satisfaction of enjoying it every day. If I can do anything to help, or if you want to see what I did to renovate my house, let me know.
Posted by: sally at December 19, 2008 9:02 AM
You mention, 301K FHA loans. Our experience in the last 3 months has been that no lender is doing these anymore.
If someone knows otherwise, please share, because we still want to buy this house.
In September, we tried to buy a 3 family row house in Jersey City. We had an executed contract, and a mortgage commitment from a lender with 20% down.
Although the house was marketed as move in ready, the inspection revealed 80K in immediate repairs. We nagotiated a 100K discount. However even with the discounted price funding a 20% down payment and 80K for the work became an issue.
The Original lender would no longer lend us the money.
We spend the next 3 months trying to get a mortgage. We had the bait and switch done on us so many times. No one would even discuss a 301K FHA, since in a declining market, a house is expected to loose value even after renovations and improvement. We tried to put down 15%, but the PMI people wouldn't insure. It truly was a nightmare.
Have things eased up a bit? We rented but want to start the process again in the Spring.
Posted by: kdabrowski at December 19, 2008 9:24 AM
mopar - i do think your estimate and breakdown are low. we have a 2 story that needed all new electrical and plumbing and floors & ceilings and walls. things come up and stuff happens. i think it will cost over 100k and we haven't even finished replacing all of the windows. i also think one month is completely unrealistic. do one floor at a time, so you can at least move in to a completed area and figure out the rest.
Posted by: bkny at December 19, 2008 9:28 AM
No, I'm sorry to say that your costs don't seem realistic—way too low. Equally or more important are the timeframe you mention and its missing elements. Some of the work you're talking about requires permits, which you haven't figured into your price for (or the professionals who'll supply drawings, make applications, etc.), and which can't be obtained in a month. The need, desire, expectation to complete this all in a month in order to rent are a concern about your ability to cover the cost of delays and deal with unknown conditions that are guaranteed to arise. That's not an argument against making the purchase, but definitely reasons to rethink and readjust before jumping in. If these prices came from a GC, ask him why he didn't mention permits and then do another walk-through with another GC.
Posted by: vinca at December 19, 2008 9:41 AM
Pretty much any old house is going to need a lot of work, unless the previous owner already did the reno, in which case you would be paying a higher price. Taking on an old house is "crazy talk" -- I know because we did it and almost lost our minds. But you could end up with a great house you will enjoy for years.
Some basics for your decision:
1. Don't do it if you are not prepared for the project to go over budget or take longer than expected. Your prices sound pretty good and I am not sure they will hold. Your one-month deadline sounds downright impossible. There are always delays, especially when you are trying to preserve details, rather than gut. Also, was your estimate from the inspector or from a GC. You need to rely on estimates from a GC (and get more than one). Inspectors can be way off.
2. Be prepared for surprises. I don't know anyone who has renovated an old Brooklyn house without at least one major surprise (and no, I don't mean a treasure chest behind the walls).
3. Make sure you either trust your own design sense or have good advice (paid or otherwise). There will be lots of decisions along the way. You will be spending a lot of time picking out every last thing for your house. This can be fun, but it is time consuming and it helps to have an overarching vision.
4, You need to be around a lot to supervise the GC and answer questions. Otherwise, things slow down and a lot of stuff gets done the wrong way.
5. Make sure you have a detailed conversation with the GC about all the things that are not included in the price -- all the finishes you will have to buy. Every new door needs a new doorknob. Light switches, toilets, sinks, light fixtures. Make sure yuo are budgeted for all this.
6. Make sure the GC has enough reserves to purchase all his materials when he needs them without needing you to advance more money than your agreed payment schedule (and never let your payments get ahead of the work).
If you can live with all that, go for it. It sounds like a great find.
Posted by: slopefarm at December 19, 2008 9:45 AM
P.S. When I said the prices sound pretty good, I did not mean accurate, I meant that they seem quite reasonable. Others are suggesting that they seem low, and they may well be right, even without any surprises. As an example, if all the plumbing is old, not too many licensed plumbers will be willing to sign off on replacing only parts of the supply lines. You may be looking at going top to bottom on the plumbing, which would probably be about a $30k job. When your GC gives you an estimate, makes sure he has gotten estiamtes from an electrician and a plumber for those parts of the job. Otherwise, the allowance the GC gives could be way off.
Posted by: slopefarm at December 19, 2008 10:03 AM
The $7,000 for 14 windows seems quite low. What windows are being spec'd and what are the sizes?? Don't go with anything other than insulated double pane glass.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 19, 2008 10:20 AM
The thing that seems waaay cheap to me is the electrical--we spent at least double that per floor. But what really adds up with electrical is the number of "points'---e.g. lights, plugs, and switches, plus special wiring for AC, appliances, etc.
You should have an electrical plan that shows what you're getting for that price. It may be only running the new power up to each floor, but not doing a whole lot of add'l wiring.
That said, it's nice to have as much electrical and plumbing done as you can afford so that you're not opening up walls later. Also think about cable and speaker wires and hard-wired smoke alarms--it's much easier and cheaper to do at this stage if you can swing it.
Posted by: tinarina at December 19, 2008 10:23 AM
Also wanted to say that there's some beautiful houses on the Bed-Stuy-Bushwick border. Sounds like you found a good one!
Posted by: tinarina at December 19, 2008 10:27 AM
It really is completely crazy to buy an old house. But there is something very valuable about living in a home you "love". While doing the renovation will take its tolls in more than monetary ways, you'll have something that completely suits you at the end of it. Only you can decide if you are up to the task and if the rewards are worth it.
PS: $80K for what you describe sounds INSANELY cheap. Are you sure you have a good estimate?
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at December 19, 2008 10:36 AM
Mopar, Slopefarm gave excellent advice, and one thing he said really resonated with me. I haven't been able to have very much work done here, but I did have my 2 bathrooms roughed out (I'm doing the finishing, the pyramids took less time.) Anyway, I went away for 2 weeks on a job while the bulk of the work was being done. I left the contractor a very detailed list of what original features I wanted either reused or removed to save. For the most part the workmen did that, but the contractor forgot to tell them I wanted a door moved, and that I was reusing the original door. When I came back, the new door entrance was framed in the same place, but for a new door, not the larger antique. I ended up having the old door cut down, and the original entrance ended up working out fine, but that kind of thing wouldn't have happened if I had been here. Looking at the door now, most people may not see anything wrong with it, but I can tell the proportions are off because of having to cut it down.
All in all, I still say go for it, but do expect your estimations to be low. I'd prioritize with an iron hand, get the rental done first, so you have money coming in, and take your part of the house one step at a time. I can live with my rooms not looking the way I'd like for now, but good plumbing and electrical systems are a must.
I'd be more than happy to come over for cookies. You can have a Brownstoner painting party.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 19, 2008 10:39 AM
If you have detailed estimates as you do, they should be reasonably accurate. Electrical seems a little low, but all these 100+k estimates are for anal types who want everything perfect and high-end (maybe you're one of them, I don't know, but I'm not.) We spent less than your amt for a lot of detail work on 2 floors, reframing most of our garden rental, 2 kitchens and redo of 1 bath.
Boiler replacement may be high. Try Keyspan if you have oil and see if they give you a break to change to gas, cost us $5,500 6 years ago, including removal of tank.
Ask yourself: can you live with say the electrical for a while? As long as it's safe, low amperage can be lived with.
You can get a lot of stuff done by handymen types as we did and save a lot of money. Just be sure you know more than they do and be prepared to supervise closely.
Posted by: cmu at December 19, 2008 11:00 AM
To get exactly what's necessary; and required by code, in the electric department you need your architect to draw out a full electric blueprint of every socket, switch, etc and then have that costed out.
Running BX cable is very labor intensive. I assume you need to upgrade the incoming (to 200 Amp) and the boxes to modern curcuit breakers as well.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at December 19, 2008 11:32 AM
Nothing is more cranky or anal than a consultant like cmu standing over handymen and expecting them to do the work of craftsmen at half the price while lording his superior knowledge. Preservation, repair and renovation of an old building is a fantastic and satisfying process and endeavor. And one that is full of learning and surprises, even moreso for a first-timer. Take heed of the warnings and cautions—they're coming from people who are in the midst of the experience (because owning an old house means you're constantly going to be in the midst of some experience). Nearly all people want to believe that what they see on the surface, or hear about simple easy jobs, will be the nature of their own reno.
Your repairs will teach you otherwise, and you will come out of it an entirely better person for living through and discovering solutions to the ups and downs. Slopefarm provided a wonderful and sane list as a jumping off point, even though he, like most people, reports almost losing his mind in the process.
Posted by: vinca at December 19, 2008 12:06 PM
Whatever you think it will cost, double it. However long you think it will take, double it.
I just upgraded all the mechanicals in a brownstone, new heating with zones, AC, new plumbing, new electrical. Massive job.
Posted by: superstooper at December 19, 2008 12:47 PM
Thank you so much, everyone. This is eye opening.
Sally, I live in Bushwick now and would love to talk to you. Could you please email me at qualitymartpa at hotmail?
Re the FHA loan, I expect to hear back from my mortgage broker soon and will let you know.
Dave, how much is a good window? These are about average size for a brownstone, nothing huge, they're not to the floor. (I was estimating $450 per -- I know that's cheap.)
Montrose, I feel for you on the door snafu. That would kill me.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: mopar at December 19, 2008 12:55 PM
Nothing is more cranky or anal than a consultant like cmu standing over handymen and expecting them to do the work of craftsmen at"
Nothing is more annoying than people who mis-read clear statements. I'm not anal, I like good work but don't sweat the occasional bad grout line, and, thank you, have had a good relationship with almost all of my handymen. In fact, the only issues were with the one "reputable" company who went over budget, screwed up quite a bit and didn't quite finish. Was not enough to take issue over.
People who want to spend 300k are welcome, I'm merely pointing out to OP that there's another way.
Posted by: cmu at December 19, 2008 1:12 PM
One thing nobody's mentioned is that this is the inspector's estimate--it's going to be low because he is not allowed, before you buy, to take a real look at what's going on underneath the hood, and he also doesn't have x-ray vision. It might also be low because he might be the inspector your realtor suggested, I don't know the particulars.
My story is germane: I was told by the inspector my realtor suggested that we had a good amount of cosmetic work to do, and that we would spend as much as we wanted, but had to do next to nothing in order to get started. And I got an idea of what the cosmetic work would cost, and his prices were quite low.
In reality, there was an astounding amount of structural damage that needed immediate attention, and that was covered in drywall, and the inspector can only talk about what he can see. And the prices he quoted for stuff like flooring was really low, I don't even remember how low it was, I try to block it out of my mind because I don't like being angry.
We dove into a project that, at this point, is more than 5x as expensive as we thought it would be. We are, technically, fine, because we are resourceful people. But my sister and brother in law taunt us mercilessly (it's the holidays, I am mentally preparing myself), and my life is not one that I would suggest anyone else take on, and it won't be for another five years.
So the first thing I would do is make sure if you are as naive as I was that your inspector is independent from your realtor. And then I would ask yourself if you could handle a worst-case scenario like mine. If you want it that badly, or are that resourceful, or are that much of an adrenaline junkie, then I would go for it.
Posted by: vanburenproud at December 19, 2008 2:02 PM
I agree that your prices sound really low. My general rule of thumb is to double the money and triple the time of the first estimate. That formula has come very close to actual cost for every construction project I've done. I'd buy detail over mechanics any day.
Posted by: jfss at December 19, 2008 3:49 PM
Inspector was independent. In fact (did I already post this? I'm forgetting) he's a former GC who has rehabbed his own Brooklyn Victorian. (Not that we shouldn't get estimates from a current GC.) It's true there could be extensive structural damage we can't see involving water and termites -- and it scares me.
We're not rich. We're not ever going to have a spare $40,000 or $80,000 above what we already have now or borrow as part of the mortgage. (It'd be more like a spare $3,000 or $5,000 a year.)
And.. this is funny...if the estimates get much higher, they'll exceed the value of this house, which is already very low.
And I don't know if it makes any difference, but remember we're not changing anything (except the electrical and we'd like to add two washing machines). We're not remodeling the kitchen or the baths. We're not moving any pipes. And they're already outside the walls.
We can't do much piecemeal. The ground floor needs to be usable immediately, because we have a home-based business. If it's not up and running, one of us has no income.
Thinking about ranch houses on Long Island....
Posted by: mopar at December 19, 2008 5:37 PM
I liked Slopefarm's list. I concur with others that your list is generally underpriced. For example, my brownstone is in a landmarked area, which makes getting new windows more complicated, but for 8 double paned glass windows (two large parlor and 6 smaller provided by Air-Flo) plus new brick frames, it cost 11,000 dollars. That is highish but yours are very low. Also, I think that your time frame for this work is so off, so way way off, my God, you will be opening up walls and as Slopefarm points out, you must be prepared for surprises. For example, when ripping out the duplex kitchen and the old bathroom, I found the source of the stinky smell emanating from my former tenant's place (we wracked our brains trying to figure out what a sewerish smell was.....) and we discovered that neither the sink in the bathroom or kitchen was vented - it was being vented into the apartment! We had to do a lot of structural work supporting floors and adding support beams to correct structural problems caused by bad work, that was all originally unexpected and never showed up on the inspectors report. Ripping up carpet on central staircase revealed that one false move could send someone through the steps, so I had to rebuild the staircase. The electrical was a mess and I did patchwork, which was a mistake, since I had to go back and open up walls later.
I redid 3 floors, rebuilt everystaircase, most of the electrical, doing structural repair, new kitchens, new bathrooms, sprinkler system, new floors, fixtures, doors, all new windows in front, basement repair, monster tree removal, patio in back, roof repair, new front doors, new hallway floors, refinishing banisters, replacing spindles to refurbish, new front doors, new floors in hallway. With a contractor who helped with some structural design ideas (but with little aesthetic sense in general, much less respect for historic detail) I had to watch them every step of the way and instruct them what to buy and watch installation and work daily. I learned my lesson. The minute I relaxed, they started making lots of mistakes or solving problems with out my input which generally meant having to do things over again. I was there everyday before work and after work (my day job). I designed things myself and told them what to do almost every step of the way. I made every purchasing decision, locating the stuff from tiles, to flooring, to moldings, doors, etc. so that was very time consuming.
I would say that you should go for it, but realize that this is a full time job and hope that you have the time to be involved to this extent. If you travel a lot or just want to hand over the keys to someone, forget it.
I got a lot of help from Brownstoner, since I had no experience whatsoever, just the recommendation of a basically honest, cheap and pretty good contractor. I had a number of experiences which had me out on the ledge -- kitchen fiasco thanks to Home Depot (never, ever, ever buy anything more complicated than what you can get off the shelf from Home Depot) which I battled my way out of and several other mistakes due to my lack of knowledge and my contractors utter lack of aesthetic sense -- if left to him, this brownstone would look like a ranch a la Home Depot. This all takes time.
Well, I have to say that for me, it was a learning process but now the house is in good shape 4 years later, with most of the work done within 2 years (I had to stagger due to tenants living in different apartments -- I did one rental apartment first, lived in it while renovating the duplex which was for me). This year, I had 8,000 dollars of unplanned maintenance: 2,000 dollars for a squirrel attack (squirrel got into the duplex from a spot on the roof and was did more damage than Sid Viscious in a London Hotel), a cracked sewer pipe (one piece of pipe was 60 years old and not replaced cost me 3,000 dollars and electrical repairs to front of building for 3,000.
Anyway, if you have the time and inclination for all this, its a good idea. Good luck.
Posted by: donatella at December 19, 2008 6:29 PM
Donatella,
I enjoyed reading your story. I could add a long one too but we're off to brave the weather and have dinner.
Good luck Mr. Mopar!
Just remember, if it is possible...keep it simple. We didn't heed that advice years ago and kind of wish we had.
Happy weekend Everyone!
Posted by: BrooklynGreene at December 19, 2008 6:50 PM
Case in point. Do as little as you can get away with. Donatella's story makes a good reada, but you know what? if you're strapped for money, stick a AAV on the vent and close it up. Not to code, but it works. If there's one bad stair, patch it. DOn't replace the whole staircase. Live with stuff if you can't fix it. The house ain't gonna fall down.
ahh, I'm tired of these horror stories. Reminds me of when we had the kid and *everyone* would tell us how horrible we were going to have it for the next 22 years. Well guess what, we had little of that. I think there's a psychological need for the outliers to peddle their horrors as if they were the norm.
Good luck in your renovation. Don't believe all this excess you read here.
Posted by: cmu at December 19, 2008 8:25 PM
I would say that you should replace and upgrade as much of the plumbing and electrical as possible. Things like plaster can wait. If you can increase your electrical capacity now you will be much happier in the future, and it will give you the flexibility go with induction cooktops and perhaps install a w/d in the rental unit. Replace the windows and boiler, too, as the increased efficiency will pay dividends immediately. Structural issues are another matter, and you should tread carefully here.
You could save money by putting off plaster, paint and flooring. I would suggest you save floors for last, anyway, especially if you are considering stripping woodwork.
I'd be worried that you don't have enough cash in reserve to deal with a major problem, esp. if your'e going to have tenants and work from home. A gas leak, for instance, can cost several thousand dollars to remedy.
Posted by: Bolder at December 19, 2008 10:04 PM
Is the house livable and/or can you live somewhere else for an indefinite period while it is being done? If yes, I'd say you can perservere through the unknowns, risks, and overruns. If no, I'd say that you might be getting in over your head given what you describe about your work/financial situation.
We are in the wind down (fingers crossed) of the "first phase" of a 3 story townhouse renovation. It's gone surprisingly well with minimal unexpected structural or other problems for a house that is 115+ years old and was neglected for the last 30. And we feel very good about the honesty and work ethic of our GC and his crew.
But we are 6 months behind our original schedule. When we closed on the house I honestly believed we would be living in it by late Sept/early Oct and now I think it is likely to be late Feb. And this is a job without "surprises", just permitting delays, time to order materials, etc.
If we couldn't afford to stay in our rental and carry the mortgage while the work was being done, we'd be in trouble not based on the cost of the work but just on the time estimate you have.
That said, I also think your costs are low. For example, we just paid $9K for 12 standard townhouse sized windows and that doesn't include the cost of installation. Granted we went with Marvins, but one thing we didn't even consider is that when you need windows to fit into an existing space chances are your windows will be custom sized unless you want to lose several inches of window (which we didn't).
Posted by: pmmtenement at December 19, 2008 11:46 PM
Oh - also, having now bought two homes that needed "some work" the inspectors in both instances were totally off about how much that work would cost.
In our current situation the inspector estimate ~$75-80K of work and I think by the time we are done we'll have spent $250-300K - granted a good $100-150K of that will not have been, strictly speaking, necessary.
And the first place we bought the inspector estimated $20-30K of work and we have spent at least $50K and not even addressed all the items that were on his "aged and should be replaced" list.
While all this may sound very discouraging, I will say we love our homes and I am totally happy we have chosen to do this -- you just need to make certain you can perservere through it.
Posted by: pmmtenement at December 19, 2008 11:53 PM
Oh, by the way, for all that work, I spent 220,000 dollars and I am knowledgeable enough to do all of that work again for less probably and without all the "horror" stories. And maybe Mopar's place isn't the Adam's family type wreck mine was. But an key part of my situation was the fact that I HADN'T had any experience and had to deal with all of this as I went along and I didn't have a huge amount of money to hire an architect and a project manager, although maybe it would have paid off. I sincerely wish I could have sailed placidly through all of this as some people (cmu, I wish I were you), but alas I couldn't. Also, I wanted to have a brownstone which was done, or as done as it could be. My neighbors have had a house for 10 years and they have a very laid back approach to doing work, but they still have tools and projects pieces scattered through the house after 10 years. I wanted the tools, the workers, the dust to be finished with. No more ripping walls or big construction projects. (I hope). I wanted to get the work done. It is now done. I think your capacity for living in a ongoing construction site is an issue. Anyway, if it isn't apparant, I went through a lot with my renovation, but the house is pretty awesome and I am proud of it, so maybe I didn't express that part very well. Sincerely -- I wish you the best of luck and you can check back with the folks on brownstoner because I got a lot of help on this site.
Posted by: donatella at December 20, 2008 12:51 AM
Or I suppose we could try getting a HELOC, but that seems impossible since I'm sure home values will only go down for the next two years. (Even though this house is already very cheap, already almost as low as could be imagined.)
Posted by: mopar at December 20, 2008 10:53 AM
Mopar: This thread is a good example of what it's like to renovate an old house.
You begin with a certain idea and after the surface gets peeled back you find many things that differ from your expectations and plans that need revising. If you rely on a computer for your home-based business, and you've never been in the middle of the repairs you describe, you are likely to find that situation very challenging, even if only in terms of dust and debris. It's not clear why you think the house is priced at the bottom of this market (or the future market), or whether you need to make the purchase immediately. Your love of the house is a big reason to move ahead. On the flip side, a big area of concern is what you've written about your need to live in the house, generate income from both home business and rental, and perform all work on an expedited timeframe and limited budget. Go back and reread Slopefarm's list. Also, I strongly recommend you contact an NHS office near you and sit down with one of their counselors. They offer wonderful resources and training, and several loan and financial assistance programs: http://www.nhsnyc.org/content/buy/homebuyer_education.html
Posted by: vinca at December 20, 2008 1:26 PM
"In our current situation the inspector estimate ~$75-80K of work and I think by the time we are done we'll have spent $250-300K - granted a good $100-150K of that will not have been, strictly speaking, necessary"
See?!
"I didn't have a huge amount of money to hire an architect and a project manager, although maybe it would have paid off"
Well only in NY could 220k for a renovation be classified as "not a huge amount of money." Let me tell you about my case. Granted it was nowhere near a gut reno but I don't believe in that anyway. We lived on one floor while the bottom 2 floors were finished. I don't remember excessive dust, computer crashes or my kid going bonkers. The first phase went some over time but not over budget (I won't say how much since you won't believe me, it's low.) 2 kitchens, rental apt framing, fix one bath, paint all.
Two years later we moved stuff out of the middle floor (we have triplex) to redo that bath (fairly comprehensively,) replace all trim and doors and redo floor.
Then the next year we cleared the top floor to do the same thing, including new bamboo floor and laundry room setup. We lived with the combined washer-ventless-dryer until then.
We don't care if the spindles on the stair are encrusted with paint or there are a few cracks in the wall-ceiling join, or the floors slope a bit. We don't have the excessive kind of money some do here, and we used handymen to save money. Most of our friends opine the house looks good, but it'll never be in Arch. Digest (thank goodness.)
So I say again to OP: it sounds like you want a reasonable reno at middling cost, and, believe me, it's quite possible. unless, of course, you're picky and high-end oriented. I'll give you a simple example: dining table ceiling outlet was not centered over table. Did I pay $200 to move it? No, I used a 50c hook where I wanted it, and looped the pendant's wire over it to the outlet. Would the many perfectionists here be horrified? Probably. Does anyone else notice?
Posted by: cmu at December 20, 2008 4:54 PM
I say go for it. Were in the finishing stages of a four floor gut reno in Boerum Hill. We had thought it would be a sort of in between reno but partial renovation on an 1860s house that had its last boiler put in in 1924 (really) and a single glass fuse running power to the whole house was just not viable.
We did everything. Electric, Ducting with AC and Heat stripped and repointed the front, totally rebuilt the stoop, Windows Back Stucco Cable Speaker Cable Knocked thru the garden floor, punched out a big kitchen window. Were in spackle city right now.
Financially its a rollercoaster, its still a work in progress and were flat flat broke, and cutting corners on the finishing like billy-o but as were near the final stages and starting to pack at our rental round the corner we are only excited. We learned fast that a lot of pain now means 1) a significantly higher house value and 2) less leaks, bodges and fixing while were living in it.
And when we're not paying rent and a mortgage we'll be set!
Your quote does sound very low even if its a partial gut (the things you uncover only add to the cost) But if the price you bought it was below par for the area, you can only win. good luck.
Posted by: nicksull at December 20, 2008 5:28 PM
you are looking at a 2- 300,00 renovation.. do not fool yourself that it will cost less
Posted by: eman1234 at December 20, 2008 9:51 PM
Um, CMU, I am in your price range, taste and lifestyle wise. We are living in our house while we renovate, and expected to have a story like yours. We came across structural damage/issues with electricity/plumbing problems that couldn't be ignored.
Posted by: vanburenproud at December 21, 2008 9:45 PM
Curious what people do when they uncover unexpected problems that have to be taken care of and they don't happen to have half a million stashed away under the mattress. Curious also to hear the gory details of what you uncovered, vanburenproud. Rotted-away beams? What about the plumbing and electricity? Thanks, everyone.
Posted by: mopar at December 22, 2008 12:33 AM
I agree with eman1234, a 80K estimate from a home inspector equals min. 200K interior repair work right off the bat. Bet the porch is rotting and the roof hasn't been done in forever. But hey, if you dig a project and love the house and neighborhood, go for it.
Posted by: pattunia at December 22, 2008 3:53 AM
Dear Mopar,
You have been on my mind after my long saga on my renovation. I really didn't want you to be scared away from buying a house you really love, but hearing people's stories can give you a sense of what rehabbing an old house entails. You probably have been scared by all these stories, including my colorful saga of adventures. I decided to buy a wreck of a brownstone by myself, having very little experience. My challenges also included having to deal with some inherited tenants, so occasionally I get on a roll about the drama connected with my own renovation. I am sorry if I scared you. I have to say that after all my hard work and periods of exasperation, that my house is pretty beautiful now in my humble opinion, and the Fellini Satricon cast which lived in my duplex is now on to bigger and better things elsewhere, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. I have to say that the surprises, i.e. stuff not identified by the inspector or by my contractor related to the following:
-- Floors. I decided to replace floors in all apartments because they were a combination of: very damaged, patchwork repairs using very cheap materials, waterdamaged, uneven. When taking off the top layer of flooring, we found the reason for the bowed floors. In the case of the first floor, we found that some work had been done cutting into a support beam (needed to add beam of engineered wood). We also added additional supporting joists on first floor. Other floor joists had been cut into to add plumbing lines at one time compromising structural support of floors. We added additional beams to support joists. This is your non-technical explanation.
-- Plumbing. I mentioned lack of venting due to prior cheap, incompetant plumbing jobs. Most of the plumbing had been replaced except for a stretch of the sewer line in the basement (probably 60 years old). This became clogged, putting pressure on pipe and stressing it and helping along some old cracks causing a dripping. It needed to be unclogged and replaced (replacement 1200 dollars by John Hlad, unclogging by Mr. Sewer 450 dollars, cleanup paid by insurance).
-- Water. The entire back of the building had water dripping through the masonry. I had masonry on the back of the building (originally brick and covered with masonry). On the roof, however the the bricking was not covered up well with masonry and the wearing away of pointing in bricks had created channels for water to stream through during heavy rains. Had to have all that covered up and the back of building waterproofed. This reqired internal repairs of walls and replastering. You wouldn't have this particular problem, but getting your house watertight is important and finding old problems is an issue. I also had to do repairs of skylights which also generously leaked.
-- Electrical. I did rewiring for new appliances and lighting. Needed to sort out which electrical and upgrade for modern appliances. I don't know if any of that will surprise you, but you will need a liscensed electrican to assess what is what with each outlet and make sure that you have adequate electrical for large appliances, including refrigerators, microwave, airconditioning, etc.
--Steps, others have pointed out that rickety stairs did not necessarily have to be completely rebuilt. That is true. They could have been patched up, but in many cases I decided to go for it and just get it done.
--Trees. I had two monstrous trees in my backyard. I spent a total of 6,000 dollars on trees. One huge tree was diseased and had to be removed (total cost 3500 to get the tree and stump removed) and several trimmings of the remaining tree, (which covers 7 properties) including dealing with major leader snapping after a nor"easter. Not to mention that even taking one tree down, my backyard was the Ft. greene community center for squirrels (one of which got into my place, bad, bad Rocky).
Well, that's my story. I think it helps to have a HELOC and only use for emergencies. I also think it is helpful to have some funds put aside for emergencies if you can handle it.
Good luck what every you decide to do, Mogar. I wish you good fortune and a lot of happiness. Please come to Brownstoner with questions. People try to help one another on the Forum. I got a lot of help.
Sincerely,
Donatella
Posted by: donatella at December 22, 2008 7:47 AM
Mopar, the conditions you've described in your house-to-be clearly won't be fixed with 50¢ hooks. That's one of the most important things to understand before going into this—you can make only the most necessary repairs, but when you're talking about plumbing, heating, and electricity, it's still going to cost dearly. There's a fair amount of discussion about over-the-top, high-end renovations on this site, but there's no reason to misdirect you about what *you* will encounter with your own renovations, or undermine other people's renovation experiences by dismissing true stories as the "horrors" of perfectionist moneybags. Renovation and repairs—at every level—are expensive, there's no way around that. The choices will be constant between what you want to do and what you can afford to do. I urge you to do at least one more, and hopefully more than one, walk-through with a different contractor so that you fully understand what you're undertaking and whether you can afford to jump in. Use the same approach when actually hiring someone to do the work—make sure you've gotten at least three bids, and that the line items are detailed rather than summarized so there's no confusion on either side about what's being undertaken and paid for. Not only the walk-throughs, but comparing the written bids will give you a lot of insight into who you want to hire.
I join Donatella and others in wishing you good luck and a good outcome.
Posted by: vinca at December 22, 2008 12:48 PM
Thank you so much, Donatella, this is very helpful -- both the repair info and the funding info.
With Heloc's not being given out right now, boy talk about a freezing effect on the purchase of most homes in Bed Stuy and Bushwick -- because I have yet to see a single house in these areas that do not require at least $20,000 worth of work, and most are more like in the $150,000 category. Even though the houses themselves are so affordable. Well, that's the problem. And they sit there empty just getting more and more damaged. With this freeze on today I'm worried all the pipes will burst in the place we want, since they don't have the heat going.
Posted by: mopar at December 22, 2008 12:52 PM
Mopar, let's hope that the house makes it through this rough winter; re the credit situation, it appears that our government is flooding the system with more capital, so it is possible you may be able to get additional financing. There are great deals on jumbo loans for 2 family houses as part of the financial stimulus package (3 families, no -- but this could work out for you - you could get a 5.125% fixed rate....) Do the research now - check with Norman Calvo of Universal Mortgage in Park Slope for financing ideas. Norman is a wonderful man, very honest and hardworking and extremely knowledgeable mortgage broker. He knows everything about where you can find money. Give him a call. Unlike the many of the rest of us who bought in more fevered times, you have time to be very deliberate in your approach.
Vinca, thank you.
Posted by: donatella at December 22, 2008 2:25 PM
It's well within the conforming limits. Places in Bushwick and Bed Stuy are very inexpensive. Just tough to get a construction loan on a place that's not worth much to start with and dropping every day. My mortgage broker is working on it, going to talk with her tomorrow.
Posted by: mopar at December 22, 2008 6:34 PM
Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Vinca. Yeah, repairs are expensive. Shame about that. :)
Posted by: mopar at December 22, 2008 6:42 PM
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