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December 18, 2008
Cold Apartment
We have a five story brownstone co-op. All the apartments feel that they are too hot during the heating season. The Parlor floor apartment which has the highest ceilings claims to be too cold all the time. We have one pipe steam radiators and the master plumber was just in and balanced everything. Does anyone have this experience with a parlor floor like this. The other apartments are at 80 degrees.
Is it fair to have to spend co-op money to overheat the other floors just to get these young people heat? Most apartments have the radiators off or windows open.
Comments
Is it fair to be a cold young person?
Posted by: TownhouseLady at December 18, 2008 2:18 PM
It depends. Are they complaining of being cold while wearing a tank top in their apartment? Or are they wearing a sweater and still cold? I'd have to hear what the actual temperature is in their unit to say whether they should be upset or they should suck it up. In our old coop I'd wear two heavy sweaters at the same time and still freeze. Without much sympathy from the other apts. That's what I call unfairly cold. It was ridiculous.
Posted by: traditionalmod at December 18, 2008 2:25 PM
If it's 68 or over the coop should be ok. And you seem to have the majority of owners on you side. You might consider installing thermostatic radiator valves on the too-hot apartments ($75 a pop) but may unbalance the system if you have too many. Maybe you can buy them oil-filled space heaters (safer) and let them pay extra for their own heat.
Posted by: cmu at December 18, 2008 2:33 PM
Lots of recent threads on uneven heat and lots of advice. Look those up. Soem highlights -- look for drafts/heat loss in the cold apartment and look into whether the radiators are sized correctly. You need to diasgnose the problem-- is the apartment actually colder, and is it because it isn't heating up as fast or because it is losing heat faster?
Posted by: slopefarm at December 18, 2008 2:47 PM
It's really a combination of things -- some windows are drafty, skylights drafty, some spots no insulation, you need the right valves on the radiators, the radiators have to work. My parlor floor is cold because of the drafts from the front door. I need to do something to prevent drafts from under the doors. In my house, the thermostat is in this cold room so it heats up everything else, except my top tenant, who is a delicate flower and who is freezing. It IS colder up there. I am torn at times between being an understanding reasonable person interested in providing good services, making people happy and creating good karma and good vibrations ----- and telling people to suck it up and stop being such wimps, but alas, I think I will go up there with my plumber to check the radiators and do some puttying around the windows and the skylights.
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2008 4:49 PM
donatella, I have your parlor floor problem except my thermostat is upstairs. Can't keep the parlor warm enough for casual hanging out without overheating the house. I have found that every bit of weatherproofing helps. I've gotten the temp differential down from about 10 degrees to about 3-4. I still have a bit more weatherproofing, but there is also the problem of having open stairs. The heat is always going to go up. Keep weatherproofing and finding all those little drafts, it will slowly pay off. Check the outlets on outside walls -- often a big draft.
Posted by: slopefarm at December 18, 2008 5:01 PM
oki doki, slopefarm. Hey, I heard that you went to that Brownstoner party and too bad I missed meeting you. Alas, I got there too late, having gotten hopelessly confused directions to the party. MontroseMorriss aka CrownheightsProud told me you were there. Anyway, I will try the weatherproofing. Thanks.
Posted by: donatella at December 18, 2008 7:53 PM
Our building is also a 5-story brownstone, and the parlor floor is always the coldest unit in the building—by far. In large part, that's because of a 2-story, very cold extension on both garden and parlor levels. But the garden level gets heat from the boiler room in the cellar, while the parlor floor does not. The upper units are quite comfortable. Should the young people get adequate heat? Of course they should (unless you're suggesting you'd rather they pay for services they're not getting).
Posted by: vinca at December 19, 2008 12:45 AM
donatella,
Unless you got there really late, I was there. I was chaperon . . . er, hanging out with BRG and biff by the fire from 10 on. I was there from about 7:30 on, but I hear several others came late and couldn't find us.
If you want to pour out your tortured renovator's soul, see "crazy talk" in today's forum.
Posted by: slopefarm at December 19, 2008 9:52 AM
I live in a drafty Victorian with an open staircase. To keep more of the heat downstairs where I need it, I've hung a curtain along the banister side. Not the most attractive solution, I know, but it does work. I've also invested in an EdenPure ceramic space heater. It's pricey--around $300--but it heats small spaces very well and can be placed just about anywhere, since the unit itself doesn't get hot. It may not be the ideal way to balance a heating system, but it might be cheaper (and more pleasant for the other owners) to buy the parlor floor tenant one of those.
Posted by: Iris at December 19, 2008 10:06 AM
well, i loathe radiator heat for this reason. you can try insulating the colder rooms. we had it done on 2 walls. the come in, punch holes around and then inject insulation that moves to fill in the entire wall. they patch. you later paint over it. totally works.
i think i'll do this to every exterior wall if i ever move again, although i hope i don't!
good luck.
Posted by: wine lover at December 19, 2008 3:33 PM
Should young people get heat? Yes. Should old people get heat? Yes. Should middle-aged boomers get heat? Yes.
I don't see what age has to do with it, and I'm zeroing in on this part of the post because the age information seems irrelevant to the question.
Should people get the services for which they pay the co-op fee? Yes. As a co-op you have the responsibility as a group to figure it out.
Posted by: BrooklynButler at December 19, 2008 3:35 PM
"The Parlor floor apartment which has the highest ceilings claims to be too cold all the time."
"Claims" has nothing to do with it. A thermometer has everything to do with it. You need to make a distinction between the objectively observable temp and the occupants personal comfort level. If the parlor floor is actually colder than the rest of the place then the coop has an obligation to remedy the situation - whatever that involves - not installing local additional heaters for the parlor floor occupants to pay for.
If they're just feeling cold and the temp is close to the other units then it's up to them to pay for local heaters to bring it up to their personal comfort level.
And agree - their age has nothing to do with it.
Posted by: jfss at December 19, 2008 4:01 PM
"I was chaperon . . . er, hanging out with BRG and biff by the fire from 10 on."
SLOPE!!!!
Chaperon...er.....
You were more like the 3rd wheel ;)
Posted by: bayridgegirl at December 19, 2008 4:03 PM
i found the name of an insulator:
JC Home Care Center
631-756-5600
1-800-660-6446
Posted by: wine lover at December 19, 2008 4:11 PM
"You were more like the 3rd wheel ;)"
More like the fifth wheel to your cadillac.
Posted by: Biff Champion at December 19, 2008 4:29 PM
you have to change the sizing on the air valves to make the 1st floor get more heat during each cycle...that is what your plumber should have done during his balancing...of course a 15 foot ceiling will have a huge heat loss..get another heat specialist..i will come over and give you a bid, since this is my field.. the other option is to increase the radiation size in the underheated apartment, which is a fairly cheap date
Posted by: eman1234 at December 19, 2008 11:37 PM
Re eman1234's comment, that is true; my plumber did that for me -- another bit of maintenance information I never knew till he suggested that that might be contributing to the uneven heat. It helped. I think my issues now have more to do with drafty, old windows and skylights, which I have to fix. I asked my tenant to put a towel on her window sill until I get the whole thing caulked and weatherstripped.
Posted by: donatella at December 20, 2008 12:09 AM
OP The plumber did change all the air vents. I am pretty sure that our issues are approaching our neighbor to reduce his drafts. The parlor floor is inclosed because we are a multi unit . I installed energy star windows and sealed my co-op very well, others have done the same.
The plumber also said we once it becomes to hot and the upper floors shut their radiators it is takes longer to heat the other floors.
The heat cycles on every hour, and overheats every floor in the building.
Posted by: Pstreet at December 20, 2008 2:20 AM
if you are overheating every floor on cycle except for the first floor, you either have to increase the radiation on the first floor, increase the air vent size, or change the heat loss on the first floor...it seems like you are imbalanced heat wise in regard to the 1st floor..i would do this pro bono just because it is an interesting problem...send me an email
Posted by: eman1234 at December 20, 2008 9:44 PM
eman1234 what's your email addy? I'm in an 8-unit building with the same/similar problem
Posted by: Ppark at December 22, 2008 11:28 AM
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