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November 11, 2008
Asking for rent reduction?
We came to Park Slope at the height of the market and discovered that we are playing 25-40% more in rent for comparable apartments in our immediate neighborhood. We're up for lease renewal and our landlords want to reup for the same rent. Advice?
Comments
ask for one and if they say no just move out.
Posted by: Santa at November 11, 2008 8:52 PM
25-40%???? As the saying goes, "You could drive a truck through that!" Doubtful that a landlord is going to lower the rent. We're not in any kind of economic situation even close to that. You'd have to be some of the best tenants in the world for him to even consider it without just telling you to leave if you don't want it. I'm trying to be polite here as well.
Comps as they are called, are most often only slightly relevant in the business of appraising property values on a sale. I suspect they are even less so as comparisons of rentals. But if you actually are close to the best tenants in the world you could try persuading him with actual comps.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 11, 2008 9:30 PM
Fuck what Dave says! Just look for another apartment and tell your landlord to go fuck him/her self. We are in difficult economic times and this is not 2005. Good luck!!!
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: Return of The What at November 11, 2008 9:35 PM
Is this a real question? The obvious answer has already been given. Ask for a reduction, and if your landlord says no, move out.
Posted by: lechacal at November 11, 2008 9:57 PM
Yes, of course it's a real question. I suppose my query for advice should have been more detailed: has anyone heard of a renter asking for reduction, and if so, how did the person go about it, and how successful was the venture?? Of course, I don't have an unbiased view on whether we're the best tenants in the world, but I can definitely say that these are some of the worst landlords either of us has had. I know, I know, if they're so bad and they're bilking us, we should just move, but we'd rather just grit our teeth and bear it if we can lower the rent for another year and then try to buy, instead of moving again to another rental and then buying...
Posted by: citygirl at November 11, 2008 10:06 PM
Are you saying rents are down by 25 to 40%!? The $2K apartment would now go for $1200, or $1500 at best? Wow! I find it hard to believe...
Posted by: genya at November 11, 2008 10:17 PM
you've got to consider the costs of moving (broker fees, time spent searching for and finding a new place, moving costs) and figure that into your calculations. If your landlord is bilking you and sucks, move out. I would be very surprised if he backed down on your current rent. I've never heard of that. Was it market rent at the time you signed the original lease? I have yet to hear, market collapse or no, of rents being revised downward anywhere in NYC. Good luck.
Posted by: Frederick Law Homestead at November 11, 2008 10:32 PM
I also have not heard a bit about rents going down. In fact, basic economics of supply and demand tells me that since there are more, rather than fewer, renters around these days, rents are probably going to continue to rise.
As a landlord, I wouldn't mind a tenant asking for a reduction, but he/she would have to have an EXTREMELY compelling case to convince me to do so. Relavant comps are a great start.
In any case, good luck!
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at November 11, 2008 11:42 PM
actually ive seen some crazy rent reductions just because people cant afford their apartments anymore and their trying to get some money by renting.
someone in the newswalk condos is renting out a 1150 sqf place for $2250 when its selling for 599k. Neither are moving so I dont know what will happen.
Posted by: Santa at November 12, 2008 12:26 AM
So tell us how much the rent is and how many square feet the apartemnt is. Also describe it as far as how many BRs,decent bathroom, kitchen & closets otherwise there's no way anyone might be able to tell you whether they think its overpriced or not. Otherwise, your claim of 25-40% sounds pretty bogus like I alluded to in my first post.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 12, 2008 8:03 AM
Daveinbedstuy, I appreciate your involvement in this discussion, but you're fighting the question. My question is NOT how much our apartment is worth - we've already done our research, and you can believe me or not. The question is simply: has this ever happened, how did you go about it, and did it work?
Posted by: citygirl at November 12, 2008 9:24 AM
curiositykilledthecat, thanks for your reply! As a landlord, would you want actual listings, or would you need the prices of our neighbor's apartments? Would it be sufficient to list qualities in the apartments and their corresponding prices, in your opinion?
Posted by: citygirl at November 12, 2008 9:28 AM
OK. Point taken. I've never experienced it. Unless I knew myself that I was charging a ridiculous bubble rent and knew I had some suckers reeled in and was gouging them I'd be hard pressed to even listen to the renters' argument.
Which is why I am skeptical without seeing your "proof" or "comps" which you apparently are not going to share with us.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 12, 2008 9:33 AM
well we already answered the question: move out.
so without more information this thread is done.
Posted by: Santa at November 12, 2008 9:52 AM
also is it a management company or an individual owner? if it's a management company you might be shi+ out of luck. when i was living in morningside heights they wanted to raise our rent after the first year from 1500 for a studio to 1750. we were like are you kidding me? then me and my bf broke up anyway so i moved into harlem into a share but we were thinking about renewing the lease until that ridiculous figure. the thing is that it wasnt even rented for an entire two months (i know because it was right across the elevated train tracks on broadway near 125th.) everytime id pass id look in the window the apt was empty. i dont know if after the two months they renovated it completely but it didnt seem like it. this was just like almost 2 years ago so it could be different than now...
when i lived on the LES i was subletting from someone who had a rent CONTROLLED apartment. i was able to reduce my rent my 50 bux (from 750 to 700) and she agreed to pay the utilities in the apartment (i think because she wanted to make sure she kept getting mail to the place tho). 4 1/2 years living there, the building was sold, there were all these sketchballs pretending to be undercover detectives asking people in and around the building bogus questions "like did you see this person"... then they would bel ike "do you live here?" of course a number of us in the building fell for it and a bunch of people subletting in the building got slammed hardcore and kicked out and the people subletting their apartments werent able to get bought out supposedly.
nyc real estate is SUCH a mind f-ck. but i love it.
-rob
Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 12, 2008 9:57 AM
Sorry rob...but people abusing the rent controlled apartment situation deserve to get what's coming to them. "Sketchballs" goes both ways. THAT is why the system here is such a mind f-ck.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at November 12, 2008 10:01 AM
In my experience, the rental market works a bit differently than the buyers market.
In any particular building, apartments will go for all kinds of different rents, even if they are not stabilized or controlled. Looking at what other people in comparable apartments pay is not a good measure, because they might have had breaks for all sorts of reasons. The primary reason is because they have lived there a long time. Or the owner might give the higher priced unit more maintenance attention, or they might have been more recently renovated.
In my building, there are people who have smaller apartments than us and pay more. There are people who have bigger apartments than pay less. It mostly depends on when they moved in. None of the apartments are legally stabilized, but the building owner generally uses the 2/4% stabilization guidelines on rent increases. They never crank it up.
I think it is likely that the "comps" you are looking were 20-40% lower in rent when you moved in at the "height".
Asking for rent reductions sometimes works, but the best tactic is not to point to what other people are paying. The best tactic is to identify an alternative you can take. Identify a comparable apartment you could move into, what you would pay, and then take that to the landlord and say, please reduce my rent because otherwise I'll have to move into this alternative. Pointing at what other people pay probably won't work, because as I pointed out, their rents maybe dependent on a variety of factors.
Posted by: theandrewlee at November 12, 2008 10:06 AM
dave, okay i agree with you. the woman i rented "illegally subletted" the apt from was technially yeah, a sketchball herself. definitely. she had two apartments btw on the same floor with a wall knocked out in between since the 80s. she had me deliver the checks to the super a few times, and yeah once i was nosey and opened the envelopes (it wasnt illegal because it wasnt official mail since it had no postage) but she was paying 200 something for one apartment and 400 something for the other apartment. charging me 700 and charging 1100 for the other... so yeah she made some mad cash over the years. (which btw funding her tribeca lifestyle)
i followed that building on the LES i lived in for years recently on the property shark site and was shocked at the history of it, how many times it changed hands and for how little and how much it went for. the renovations of the apartments individually, etc.
-rob
Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 12, 2008 10:29 AM
Ive never heard of that happening but only because Ive never heard of a rental apartment getting filled at 40% above the market rate. If you truly believe that, then I'd suggest moving. I would imagine your landlord believes he is renting at market and you'll only create bad blood by asking for something so huge. You could say there is no harm in asking but actually there is - if your next potential landlord calls him for a reference and relays that story, its going to reflect badly upon you no matter how legitimate your claim is. Might as well move at the end of your lease with your relationship in good standing.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at November 12, 2008 10:30 AM
I had a similar situation to theandrewlee when I lived in Chelsea back in the early 90's and he's right. It's hard to draw comparisons even within the same building due to circumstances. We paid $1860 a month for a three bedroom duplex (this was before the neighborhood got trendy) our neighbors who lived in the same apt. next door paid $1100 difference was they'd been there for 10+ yrs. and were a stable family while our apt. saw an annual rotation of FIT students. They didn't want the neighbors to leave but would have been more than happy to have seen us go. Clearly we were a higher risk and it was reflected in our rent.
Pointing out what other are paying is similar to pointing out that your co-workers are earning more than you during salary negotiations, it never goes over well with the boss.
You just need to ask if it's possible and be prepared to accept the two choices you're left with if they say no, move or suck it up.
It's a bummer but that's the reality.
Posted by: TownhouseLady at November 12, 2008 10:32 AM
actually, there are some dumbass kids in bushwick who definintely ARE paying 40 % above market rate. but you know, there's a sucker born every day.
-rob
Posted by: PitbullNYC at November 12, 2008 10:33 AM
if you were paying the old market rate, it is ok to ask for a small rent reduction. explain that the economy is bad, you like the landlord and you would like to stay.
I am an owner and had a great tenant who tried to explain the downturn of the economy without requesting a rent reduction. He was an investment banker. He did not ask for a reduction and moved and left a clean empty apartment.
Now i am having a hell of a time getting a tenant. should have pad more attention but i didn't. My rental price will be dropped. now it is a guessing game to how much less i should charge.
Try to negotiate so you can both live with the new rent.
Don't stop talking till its done. Compromse is a necessity in this market.
if you give less money try to add something else to the pot such a paint job, minor repair, etc, any skill you might have. or maybe barter something.
keep talking with the owner in a pleasant manner.
Posted by: Ysabelle at November 12, 2008 11:30 AM
"when i lived on the LES i was subletting from someone who had a rent CONTROLLED apartment. i was able to reduce my rent my 50 bux (from 750 to 700) and she agreed to pay the utilities in the apartment (i think because she wanted to make sure she kept getting mail to the place tho)."
Rob: Last I checked, overcharges in an illegal sublet are subject to treble damages and grounds for eviction. Could have added up to thousands of dollars, depending on how much she was overcharging the subtenant.
Posted by: theandrewlee at November 12, 2008 11:42 AM
As a live-upstairs LL, I value good tenants, high rental income, and little interruption due to vacancy. The real questions are whether there are apartments you would be willing to move to in the absence of a rent reduction and how much are they going for (and with or without a fee). As tenants, if you have alternatives, you have leverage. So, go ahead and negotiate with current comps, but if those are only 20% cheaper, don't go for the 40% reduction. 20% minus any broker's fees and the cost of moving is about all the leverage you would have in that case (more if you have been really great tenants, less than that if you are messy and complain a lot). But, as LL, I would want to see the listings of currently available apartments you think are comparable before I negotiated. And I would look at all the current listings on CL in my area of similar apartments to see what I thought the market would bear, to determine my negotiatign strength -- if you cherry-picked, I would see through it and chances are there is a reason those apartments are priced lower. I wouldn't go below my own assessment of what the comps were telling me, unless I really wanted to keep you as tenants that badly.
That's how I would look at it.
Posted by: slopefarm at November 12, 2008 12:39 PM
If you haven't already, you can also look at rentometer.com to assess the situation.
I agree with slopefarm's advice re: comps. You also need to confirm that your comps are/aren't rent controlled/stablized (so that they are sure to be relevant to YOUR apartment).
Just be respectful and ready to move if they say no.
Best of luck.
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at November 12, 2008 1:51 PM
Thanks for all the comments. Yes, we realize that there are many factors, but I'm comparing our apartment to friends who moved in to apartments within a year of our movein date. We're not in a big building - I realize that different apartments in the same building can have vastly different rents; we are comparing very similar situations: for the most part, single family brownstones with one rental unit on the same "desirable" block. We are also comparing to what's out there and have weighed the costs of fees and moving. I know that it is probably frustrating that I don't want to supply more details, but I am trying to be respectful to both my neighbors and my landlords by not airing TOO much of their business all over the internet. I really appreciate all the constructive input.
Posted by: citygirl at November 12, 2008 3:43 PM
In 2002 when the economy was not doing well my landlords in Park Slope did offer a rent reduction because they were well aware that what we were paying was above what they could rent the apt for if we moved and we were good tenants. And so we renewed the lease. So if those two things - above market rent and a record of good tenancy - are the case for you, I suggest you ask. It can't hurt, and given the risk of letting an apartment sit empty the landlord may be willing to negotiate! Good luck.
Posted by: albklyn at November 12, 2008 9:29 PM
whenever I place an apartment for rent I get a flood of people coming to see the place. I was never asked to lower the rent. My rents are market rate.
Your hardest part would be to find a new place in prime park slope if you choose not to renew. Some of the people who came to see my apartments have been looking for over 3 months and you can tell from their faces that they are getting burned out from running around every day. they were all very prepared ...bringing a pay stub with them as well as a credit report and blank checks.
Posted by: landlord at November 15, 2008 11:44 AM
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