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October 27, 2008
More about Bed-Stuy
Hello Brownstoners. Saw another great brownstone in Bed Stuy this weekend, one we can afford and absolutely love. I think this was the place someone on this board recommended, on Halsey near Stuyvesant. It has almost every original detail intact and has not been "upgraded." Also ate lunch at Bread Stuy and bought a book at Brownstone Books. We are actually a little bit amazed how fancy Stuyvesant Heights is (yes, I do look funny walking around with my mouth open). Also saw many fine examples of Montrose Morris' work on the Crown Heights historical tour.
My questions:
*Is $519,000 a reasonable current price for a three-story 16.75-wide house?
*How much do you think prices will drop and for how long?
*Can we rent out the top-floor large one-bedroom for $1400?
*If I lose my job, can we rent out the owner's 2-bed duplex with yard for $2000 or more? Many thanks for your advice.
Comments
My questions:
*Is $519,000 a reasonable current price for a three-story 16.75-wide house?
Hell no.
*How much do you think prices will drop and for how long?
40% to 70%! The market will not return until 2025.
*Can we rent out the top-floor large one-bedroom for $1400?
In the Ghetto with massivve jobs loses, Hell no!
*If I lose my job, can we rent out the owner's 2-bed duplex with yard for $2000 or more? Many thanks for your advice.
See #3..
If you have to ask then it will not work out.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end..
Posted by: what at October 27, 2008 12:37 PM
I guess since the What has answered you need no other input. But just in case you may not think he's got a good read from over ther in Lodi, NJ here's my 2 cents (I don't know where the cents key is on my keyboard!!)
$1,400 for a one bedroom might be a little aggressive unless its nice and has good closets..but not more than $100-200. Yours has the benefit of being top floor. irented out my fairly nice garden floor very quickly at $1,200. It has a new kitchen and bath and I gave them laundry access and yard access. i rented it very, very quickly to a pretty well qualified couple back in February so maybe I was too low.
I don't think $2,000 for a duplex is low unless the kitchen and bath(s) are in need of an upgrade.
The $519,000 sounds very reasonable but what's the square footage, age of the mechanical, etc, etc, etc?
Do you have the listing?
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 27, 2008 12:49 PM
My answers to these questions
*519,000--not having seen the house it is obviously impossible for me to have an informed opinion but generally speaking that seems like a good price, especially if it is walking distance to Bread Stuy and all the good stuff in Stuyvesant Heights.
*Price drops and for how long--if you are buying to live in the house then this question is less relevant than you might think. Prices have already dropped quite a bit in Bed Stuy and I am sure they will continue to drop but on the other hand how much lower can whole house prices go? If you are living there for a while you will be OK when you go to sell.
*rental--I just rented out my garden apt, which is a one bedroom 800 sqf unit for 1700. This is in Clinton Hill, close to the border of Bed Stuy. I would imagine you could get 1400 for your unit if it is in reasonably good condition.
*As for rental for the duplex, 2000 shouldn't be a problem. Much more than that and you may be pushing your luck. But I am no expert on Bed Stuy rentals and it really depends on your location. If it is in or close to Stuyvesant Heights then I think your numbers are good. If it is way beyond these boundaries then maybe not.
Good luck!
Posted by: wasder at October 27, 2008 12:50 PM
Halsey near Stuyvesant is pretty much prime Bed Stuy. It's a little bit busier and noisier on Halsey because its one of the few streets with two-way traffic. But for proximity to the Lewis Ave restaurants, etc it's v. good. Lucky for mopar that I'll be right around the corner. I'm sure most posters here on brownstoner would consider it a plus to have me living nearby!!! LOL
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 27, 2008 1:08 PM
This is my block. I think I know which house you are talking about (is it across the street from the parking garage?)
The price sounds reasonable based on the size and your description. I believe this house could have sold for a little more a year or two ago. No one can predict what will happen with prices. But if you can afford it, have a secure job, and plan to stay for several years, it seems like a good decision.
Our house is a two family, similar size, and we rent the top floor one bedroom apartment for $1100. We advertised it on craigslist and there was a LOT of interest for the apartment. We found a great tenant within a few days.
This is a great block, people have been extremely welcoming and friendly since we moved here. We have a very active block association. And as you probably know several new businesses should open soon around the corner of Halsey and Lewis.
Posted by: Ibis at October 27, 2008 1:14 PM
Thank you so much, everybody. Ibis, this is invaluable. Yes, it is the house you are thinking of. We intend to stay for the rest of our lives. But we need to be prepared for the worst-case scenerio.
Also, we are debating another house that is less grand but more practical and affordable in a less gentrified area of Bed Stuy near the Bushwick border. It's an original two-family, not a brownstone conversion, so it's much easier to rent. And the rent is higher.
Where are you all planning to watch the election results? We saw a flyer for a get-together in a Bed Stuy church sponsored by the Boy Scouts. (Don't recall the location.)
Posted by: mopar at October 27, 2008 3:21 PM
I'm sure Solomon's Porch will have a TV for the results. They had one for the debates. Maybe I'll see if I can talk Peaches into getting one too.
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at October 27, 2008 3:24 PM
Mopar, when we were looking for a house a couple of years ago we spent a lot of time exploring bed-stuy (and other neighborhoods) and talking to people, and at some point we narrowed our search down to this area, based on several factors: easy access to the A train, the stunning architecture, high proportion of owner-occupied homes, and a few interesting stores and restaurants. Initially we spent some time looking further north and east toward Broadway, and there were some interesting houses (and generally cheaper), but for the reason I mentioned we're very happy we moved to our area.
What do you mean by "an original two-family, not a brownstone conversion, so it's much easier to rent"?
And just to clarify on the rent, I think our house is slightly smaller than that one, and our apartment was so easy to rent that I think that it was slightly underpriced... So you could probably get $1200 or more if the apartment is nice.
Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.
Posted by: Ibis at October 27, 2008 4:00 PM
Congratulations, mopar, I hope it works out for you.
Dave, fyi, I saw one of those marble-faced houses on Decatur east of Stuyvesant this weekend. I believe that you mentioned those houses before. Interesting, but alas too much money and not what we're after. Way more interesting from the outside, at least this one was.
Posted by: Susan Elkins at October 27, 2008 4:03 PM
this sounds promising, especially since it's in such a nice part of the neighborhood. maybe a sign that prices are heading into reasonable territory? i think it's weird that people let the 'market' determine their choices on a place to live. if you can afford the house, as long as you *don't* lose your job, this house might be the one. if you like the house and the area AND can afford it, i think that's the trifecta.
i don't really care what may happen in 2025, beyond the notion that i gotta live somewhere between then and now. As long as you don't have delusions of raking in imaginary cash, you should do well.
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at October 27, 2008 4:17 PM
I live closer to the bushwick border, how much was that other house? Where was it? What do you mean by not a conversion?
FWIW, I like it over here. Mr. Kiwi on Broadway is a pretty good grocery store, and I don't mind ten or fifteen minutes walking to Peaches, Tiny Cup, etc.
The area around the Halsey house is really, really nice, and I am jealous because I paid $90K more for my house two years ago, and because of course I want a house down where it's jaw-droppingly adorable.
But I'm assuming that a house over where I am is going to be cheaper still. And if you're in it for the long haul, I think that the savings is probably going to be valuable, the J train is definitely faster to the city and generally just a better train than the A, and that over the next many years the strip of Broadway that separates Bushwick and Bed Stuy is going to become very interesting.
I also like that I am not in one part of Bed Stuy, but instead can travel a small distance to either gentrifying part--I can go toward Stuy Heights or toward the Clinton Hill border, quickly. I feel like this gives me more options.
Posted by: vanburenproud at October 27, 2008 5:20 PM
This is just so incredibly helpful, please keep those comments coming if you have any more. To clarify, one house was originally a two-family and one house was originally a one family. The original two family is "easier to rent" because it's already two separate apartments with doors. And each apt has two or three bedrooms, so they rent for more, whereas the rental apt in Stuyvesant Heights is only a one bedroom. Another factor: If we buy the border place, our monthly carrying costs stay the same as our current rent. If we buy in the Heights, our costs go up quite a bit. And we don't have proper bedrooms (we'll be living in a parlor). But it's a very grand house in a grand location.
Posted by: mopar at October 27, 2008 5:44 PM
I think you should wait - really prices are going nowhere but down. But I guess if interest rates shoot up your monthly will remain the same...
Posted by: gkw at October 27, 2008 6:03 PM
now i want to hear more about the other house! that's the dream, isn't it? buying a whole house and not having to pay any more than your previous rent? plus a big apartment to rent? still, the stuy hts house sounds nicer in general. but frankly i like the idea of an affordable house (could you forgo renters altogether if you went for the cheaper house?)
and personally, i don't see the reason to wait if you find a house you truly love and it's a good deal for you. too many people on this site insist on looking at a home like they're looking at the keno board in atlantic city.
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at October 28, 2008 10:11 AM
but Jimmy if you KNOW that prices will come down, why would you pay more than you have to? It's not like Bed Stuy has a dearth of houses for sale - and since they're looking for a fixer upper, and brownstones are pretty generic, it seems like there will continue to be a pretty good selection out there.
Posted by: gkw at October 28, 2008 12:07 PM
Jimmy Legs, Jimmy Legs, we saw the inexpensive house on the border of Bed Stuy and Bushwick at the Halsey J stop last night. Oh, it is our dream house. Nothing has been changed since it was built. Oh, wait, that's not entirely true -- at some point they put in a few light bulbs hanging from wires and capped off the gaslights. Needs a lot of work but it's mostly cosmetic. (Stripping, refinishing floors, skim coating, painting, etc.) Plus new electrical. The floor plan is perfect for us. Jimmy, do you have any wooden fireplaces in your place? Because now I know how they were originally painted: To resemble slate with marble inlays. Jimmy, how has your experience with renters been? Our biggest concern is the location. It's just deserted. There is virtually nothing there but a laundromat. And some empty lots, presumably from the arson, looting, and blackout of 1977.
Posted by: mopar at October 28, 2008 1:14 PM
And Vanburenproud -- you're close to the Myrtle J, right? Something is going on there with retail improvements, you think? If you have renters, how is that going? I look around the Halsey stop, and it doesn't look like anything will change there for many years.
Posted by: mopar at October 28, 2008 1:30 PM
Halsey stop is much further out.
I wouldn't live that far out, I am at the edge of where I would want to live right now.
But if you like the street and you like the house and *most important* if you are locking in your current expenses, then over time that seems like a good thing that is totally worth considering.
I wouldn't jump too fast. Go to the neighborhood at night. Do your commute. Talk to your prospective neighbors a lot. Figure out where you would shop, how you would have fun, etc. Make sure you are really in love, or at least in like.
And shell out for a good inspector that isn't in your realtor's pocket. There is no such thing as a 100 year old house without structural problems.
Posted by: vanburenproud at October 28, 2008 3:37 PM
Oh, I reread your post. I wouldn't buy anything in a deserted area. Empty lots kill a neighborhood. They collect trash, rats, homeless people and all kinds of bad behavior.
Jane Jacobs writes eloquently on this. You want eyes on you all the time, with neighbors who engage in active street life.
I think this idea is especially relevant in this current environment. Crime will be rising. I wouldn't put myself in a position to have to deal with the worst things this city can offer by surrounding myself with empty lots and relatively deserted streets.
Posted by: vanburenproud at October 28, 2008 3:45 PM
Thank you so much, vanburenproud for these very informative posts. There are people around, just not much retail. (The empty lots are on Broadway, not residential, but your point is still valid.) We will do everything you suggest.
Posted by: mopar at October 28, 2008 4:45 PM
Do NOT buy a house you love in a location you don't - location is MUCH more important to long term happiness and there is nothing you can do to change it. I bought a house I LOVED in a location I didn't upstate, and i was never really happy with it even though I really loved the house and we did a very satisfying renovation. We finally sold the house because of the location - an option you won't really have. You are clearly swept up in the excitement of buying a house and are not thinking that rationally (perfectly understandable since the same thing has happened to me - twice.) Don't compromise on location! You really don't need to in this economic climate.
Posted by: gkw at October 28, 2008 5:09 PM
Thanks, gkw. Ironically, for me, the issue is not that I can't afford to buy in an area I love. I currently live in the Wyckoff Heights section of Bushwick near the Kekalb stop and I love it and want to buy there and can afford it. The problem is that I can't find a home in original condition. I can't even find a house in halfway decent condition. Everything is a total wreck, a complete gut job. I have a passion for historical homes and original kitchens and baths. I would rather rent for the rest of my life than live in a new house.
Posted by: mopar at October 28, 2008 6:28 PM
aw, i've lived off the halsey j for a couple of years and it's fine. i dunno how everybody manages to find the perfect neighborhood and find the perfect house right on the edge of an area they're already intimately familiar with. the location thing is a real issue, but anybody who has lived in NYC for more than a few years knows how fast a location can change from something blase to something worthwhile. okay obviously this area isn't 'prime park slope' or whatever and it may never be. that's okay by me. vacant lots are more problematic; they tend to turn into godawful fedders houses, if anything.
when it comes to location, i bank more on practical stuff: is it close to the subway, is there a grocery store nearby ... do come to the neighborhood at night, preferably on the weekend. my block is mostly families and things are pretty tame around here. the worst common offense around here is loud music (church or otherwise), but most people are nice and generally tolerant.
if you take your time (a luxury previous markets didn't have) i'm sure you will choose the best house/neighborhood for you. my neighborhood has been steadily improving, tho obviously it's got plenty of room to improve yet. personally i hope it takes its time, the last neighborhood i lived in now is loaded with cheese shops and wine bars and a million annoying people :)
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at October 28, 2008 7:49 PM
Wow, Jimmy, that's very encouraging indeed. I agree with you about the cheese shops attracting the wrong element. :)
Posted by: mopar at October 29, 2008 11:18 AM
I didn't mean to suggest, JL, that nobody should ever live on the Halsey stop on the J. I was just saying that I like living closer in.
I have a dog, and feel bad when I can't get back home in a reasonable amount of time, and I like that my cab fare is generally less than $20.
Everybody's got decisions to make, and I agree with you that the practical stuff is most important. For me, one of the practical concerns is keeping a convenient connection to Manhattan.
Posted by: vanburenproud at October 29, 2008 2:17 PM
i got ya :)
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at October 29, 2008 4:20 PM
We carefully inspected the neighborhood Sunday afternoon. Also stopped by briefly Friday night and Wednesday night. There is no doubt the Broadway-Bushwick corridor is one of the poorest and most blighted (boarded-up houses) in the city, and given the economy, it can only get worse. (Though if Obama wins, that will raise hopes.) The block itself appears to be moderately OK. I am no mind-reader, but my best guess is that it is neither renters nor owners, but rather mostly grandchildren of owners, sporadically employed. Everyone seemed pleasant. People hang out in their yards, but it is quiet. There are a few flowers and a community garden on the corner. We have old friends six blocks away at the Gates stop. We believe it would be prudent to stick with Wyckoff Heights and Stuyvesant Heights. OTOH, we will never see a house like this again. We can't make up our minds. Any more thoughts, anyone?
Posted by: mopar at November 3, 2008 11:36 AM
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