Forum
« Future developments around Forte Condo Need to replace Radiators »
October 22, 2008
contracts, contracts, everywhere contracts
as a new homeowner, I am going berzerk (spelling?)!!! I need to do this, that, get this done, in order for that to get done, etc, and EVERY SINGLE THING seems to recquire a contract! Insurance, architect, fuel delivery, security system that I dont want, etc, etc, etc.
Soon I'm going to have to pick a CONTRACTor, and I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who has been able to do this on a work-then-invoice basis, which makes sense to me, rather than a contractual one. Is it possible to find someone trustworthy enough who knows I'm trustworthy enough, etc, to get stuff done, like how it would have been done in the past, before lawsuits, courts, credit, debt, etc became so commonplace?
Comments
I actually think contracts are a great thing. Both parties know and agree to the scope and terms in advance. Both parties agree to areas where unknown conditions might arise and costs/terms can change. I work in manufacturing, and usually pay in advance for materials for established customers, but I don't do that for first-time clients, and I wouldn't expect a contractor to do that either. Especially, I wouldn't expect them to do that in this economic climate, where long-time manufacturing clients are extending payments for 60, 90, 120+ days. BTW, not sure why you're paying for security you don't want--delete it from the contract.
Posted by: vinca at October 22, 2008 3:55 PM
even if you don't want full-blown contracts, it's usually a good idea to at least have a simple writing that describesg the work to be performed and is signed/acknowledged by you and the contractor. it's for both parties' benefit.
Posted by: z at October 22, 2008 4:43 PM
somehow, I always feel I'm gaining nothing but aggravation from a contract. Practically speaking, when will I really get to enforce the details of a contract? Typically, I wouldn't know which details are important before it becomes a problem, and then, since I'm not offering the service, I don't get to make up the terms of the contract in the first place...
My insurance company is trying to make me get a security system for the 'renovation' period. It's enough of a hassle that I'm thinking of going with another insurance company.
Posted by: townhouser at October 22, 2008 4:50 PM
Work then invoice is not a terribly good idea, especially if it's something more than fixing a leaky faucet. At the very least you want a written estimate, which you sign as your acceptance. Letting them do the work and then invoice you is the kind of practice that's prevalent in the Department of Defense, that's why we pay $25 for a $2 hammer.
Posted by: bohuma at October 22, 2008 5:02 PM
You maybe could deal with a GC on a time and materials contract, but you better know him very well. And you better have reasonable plans from an architect. While I agree that contracts suck you need something. Of course a contract is only as good as the person behind it.
Posted by: denton at October 22, 2008 5:02 PM
secuirty system for reno? What happened to good ole master lock and some chains?
Posted by: Adam Dahill at October 22, 2008 5:11 PM
There's a lot of potential for berserkness in becoming a new homeowner. Especially in the beginning, there's the learning curve in tandem with the demands of financing, purchasing, registering, owning, maintaining, repairing and renovating. How to learn what needs attention, and who to hire for work and materials you're unfamiliar with. But those are very different issues than whether a contract is good or bad. A lousy or unreliable contractor or other vendor will defeat a good contract or cost you a fortune in either enforcing it or repairing their shoddy product. An incompetent attorney will never provide a good contract in the first place. You're wrong that you don't get to make the terms of the contract. Until you sign it, it's up for negotiation and it needs to meet your needs as much as the vendor's. There are many resources, including questions and posts to this forum, which can help with information and advice along the way. You have to make room in the midst of berserkness to seek them out.
Posted by: vinca at October 22, 2008 5:41 PM
apparently burglary and fires go up by 50% during renovation.
But I told them I will still be living here the entire time -- not enough for them.
Posted by: townhouser at October 22, 2008 5:47 PM
Thanks vinca, I think part of the beserkness is just from trying to find info, spending loads of time researching, and STILL not feeling like I'm on top of anything.
bohuma: interesting point, but I've already had an estimate (or proposal, a contract which I signed) prove to be just a suggestion (long story, but 'somebody' said he forgot something on the proposal, then proceeded to bill me extra for the work, which then also happened to end up way over his quote over the phone). I didn't want to fight this too much because I just wanted to get things done, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I think what I meant by work-then-invoice, is that I would still know what the estimate is ahead of time (kind of like knowing a price in a store before you pay for it at the counter). But then instead of paying a huge chunk upfront, I would pay as the work got done, perhaps weekly.
Posted by: townhouser at October 22, 2008 5:57 PM
I hear you on all your points. I am a carpenter and cabinet maker that does lots of random fix it stuff as well as interior work. I work with all my clients on a job by job basis. I have a daily rate and an hourly rate. For bigger stuff like say a week or a few months i write up what i will provide and accomplish which is a little more informal than a contract but it at least a sort of road map for the job. lastly i simply break the job up payment wise. I feel like this gives me goals and keeps me on track and also gives my clients enough leverage to feel in control over the direction and pace of the project.
good luck with everything.
Posted by: tfyfe at October 22, 2008 7:14 PM
If it turns out I hired a bad contractor, I would still rather have a contract than not. It's more protection, both in case you need to sue or are sued by the contractor. Time and materials on a handshake sounds pretty scary, especially if this homeowner stuff is all new to you. You want the scope of work spelled out. Not to mention, you ought to interview several contractors and get bids. You need a coherent scope of work just to compare bids.
I would only go the informal route on really tiny jobs.
Posted by: slopefarm at October 22, 2008 8:05 PM
Hi Townhouser
If you are still looking for someone (a General Contractor), then please give us a call, we can schedule an appointment to come out and see the job (this is free). We can arrange a weekly payment (this actually is a win win situation, because the client can see the job as if gets done). References and pictures are provided. If you have found someone, then I hope all goes smoothly for you.
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely
Christine Stephen
Eagle Construction
(347) 227-5834
Posted by: nightingale at October 22, 2008 9:29 PM
Time and more time. As a new homeowner, you need a whole lot of time to fully appreciate the fact that to be a home owner is to be a home groaner. . . especially when it comes to the home improvement business! And, yes, as aggravating as it may seem, do get everything in writing, including payment schedules that are tied to specific completion phases of any reno/repair project. (Over time, once you become really familiar with and trust various trades people, you may be able to negotiate small, verbal jobs with them to your satisfaction.) And, IMHO, say "no" to any contractor whose only aim in posting to this thread is to solicit your business.
Posted by: Brooklynista at October 22, 2008 10:10 PM
I have been in business for a buncha years and never seen a work then invoice contract. The above is all good advice, and you really need a contract to help the process.
So here's my question, which is different from the rest -- you mention on your list "architect" when you talk about all your contracts. So why is preparing a contract with a builder an issue, isn't your architect managing that for you? That is a basic service that any firm should be providing for you.
Posted by: Smokychimp at October 22, 2008 11:04 PM
Thanks everybody for the advice. I will try to take a different approach, and make sure the agreements are what I want in every way, before I sign them. Before I was under the impression I had to take it or leave it, and so I conceded on details that I shouldn't have.
It's just amazing how much hassle and struggle is involved in seemingly simple things.
smoky - I'm not sure yet how the architect will be involved with the builder, since it's more of an expediting paper thing, at least so I thought in the beginning...
Posted by: townhouser at October 24, 2008 9:51 AM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.