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September 12, 2008
Helicopter Noise - Does it bother anyone else?
In the past month, I've been awakened by helicopters many times between 6-8AM, and hear them buzzing all the time. Wrote CB6 and found out that:
Helicopters flying below 1500-feet are not in regulated FAA airspace. They fly by what are called "visual flight rules" which relies on the judgement of the individual pilot. The helicopters are subject to FAA regulation in terms of inspections of equipment, etc. but there are no rules that establish formal flight paths or govern local impacts. When I called 311, I was referred to the EDC (?????) and was told the heavy traffic was probably private beach going helicopters. I think lack of regulation is even worse than the noise, and would like to gather people who are interested in having helicopters regulated when flying over residential areas.
Comments
write the Borough President
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at September 12, 2008 11:04 AM
That's true and not true. All of NYC lives under a terminal control area for its three major airports as well as Teeterboro. Aircraft which aren't flying IFR (being directed by instruments and air traffic controllers) fly above 1500 feet. There's an open VFR corridor up the Hudson River with a 1500 foot ceiling for uncontrolled aircraft.
The FAA does regulate the airspace over the East River, Brooklyn and Queens but under an exclusion to the rules. For instance, after Corey Lidle's crash the FAA required all fixed wing aircraft to get permission from LGA controllers before entering the corridor. That ruling doesn't apply to helicopters but the FAA has the authority to implement operating rules for the airspace as it sees fit.
Call the Helicopter Noise Coalition of NYC (212) 628-3126.
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 11:25 AM
Er, "Aircraft which ARE flying IFR..."
In any event, helicopter noise is probably something you're gonna have to live with. I live three blocks from NYPD's heliport at BAT so I've just gotten used to Bell 412s zooming over my house at 200 feet. But NYPD is at least cool about doing this only during the day.
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 11:30 AM
This has been driving us nuts for several years now. We live in Prospect Heights -- so near both Grand Army Plaza and the Atlantic/Flatbush junction. I've always assumed it was a combination of traffic copters (same as the original poster observes, the noise often coincides with early morning rush hour) and the cops. Would love to see some lobbying of local pols on this subject. Btw, Steve, who runs that noise coalition hotline?
Posted by: NeoGrec at September 12, 2008 1:20 PM
No idea. I found it on Betsy Gotbaum's public advocate site:
http://pubadvocate.nyc.gov/services/noise.html
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 1:36 PM
Hi,
"I think lack of regulation is even worse than the noise"
With all due respect, please learn the facts before talking such nonsense. This is the problem with this country today, everyone thinks they are an expert when they really do not understand the issues. Same thing goes for our elections!
"oh my god how could these helicopters fly without being regulated???". Is that your answer to everything? Have the government regulate MORE? They need to do less. Too many of our freedoms are already curtailed because of people like YOU who call for action without a clue.
Now, first of all, it has nothing to do with regulation. *ALL* aircraft are regulated and governed by the FARs. What you are really want to complain about is the airspace. There is a class B airspace over Brooklyn that is part of the NY terminal area. This class B airspace starts at about 1,100 feet over most of Brooklyn (over some parts the floor is 1,500). The airspace extends from this lower altitude up to 7,000 feet.
To fly inside this airspace requires a clearance from ATC and is generally only obtained when landing or taking off from JFK/LGA/EWR. This is *VERY* busy airspace.
All flights are either VFR or IFR. Most local flights are typically flown under VFR, or Visual Flight Rules. VFR flights must generally remain clear of the class B airspace. So to fly anywhere in the area, there are basically two choices. Fly below the class B floor, or fly above it. It is not practically possible to fly above 7000 feet for local flights, so the only real option is to stay under the class B - that means flying under 1,500 feet or so. This floor is so low due to the very close proximity of LGA and JFK. So sorry, there is really nothing that can be done.
Now, aircraft should generally fly routes that do not take them directly over your neighborhood if possible. A responsible pilot would try to minimize this (after all, if there is an engine failure, being over populated area does not help his engine out landing chances). But depending on where he is coming from and where he is going, there may not be much of a choice. The class B just south of JFK is down to 500 feet and it is very dangerous to fly that low incase of any inflight problems (altitude is your friend in emergencies).
If the local class B had a floor of 3000 feet or so, I'm sure most of these flights would fly higher, but they can't so that's why they typically fly 1000 feet or so.
I can hop in my plane and fly circles over your house at 1500 feet if I want. But I would never do that and most pilots wouldn't either.
Do you complain about all the traffic noise? Idiots driving down the street at 50 miles an hour or revving the engines of their really loud motorcycle engines? How about that damn Fresh Direct truck idleing outside your house while you get your delivery? That annoys me one hell of a lot more then a helicopter flying past my house.
Air traffic, especially helicopters, are vital to the NYC area. Get use to it or move to the mountains of west virginia. However, I will give you that helicopters flying at that early hour should certainly do their best to fly up the river and avoid populated areas. But many times there is no other way, due to airspace, etc. I'm guessing you are not a pilot so you have no idea how complicated the airspace in the NY area is.
Posted by: wintaki at September 12, 2008 3:29 PM
Wintaki: How close do you live to a regular helicopter path? Have you even ever heard a helicopter hovering directly over your home at 6AM? Believe me, we have Fresh Direct trucks and speeding cars on our block all the time. But the noise from a chopper is something else altogether. We have the right to complain and we damn well will!
Posted by: NeoGrec at September 12, 2008 4:03 PM
CH11231, you can also try the Helicopter Complaint Hotline, 212-312-3964, but that tool may have been abandoned. It is/was operated by EDC because the Economic Development Corporation leases the major heliports. EDC and the mayor's office had a helicopter noise task force back in the late-90s but I suspect that has all faded away.
Service was expanded at the Downtown Manhattan Heliport (DMH), on the East River, a year or so ago. The operator also initiated flights to the local airports, including passenger and baggage screening that allows air travelers to get screened at the comparatively uncrowded heliport and proceed directly to their gate. I suspect that this has led to an increase in rotary wing aircraft (sorry, had to throw that in once) traffic.
I believe that the Helicopter Noise Coalition is made up of helicopter fleet owners and concerned others who seek to self-impose "good neighbor" policies. For example, the group agreed on standards for how long traffic helicopters should "idle" in one location. I think Steve gave you a good tip. And wintaki, have a class of wine of something...you're wound way too tight.
Posted by: g man at September 12, 2008 4:08 PM
It helps that I like helicopters. I even took some lessons in a Robinson R22 with hopes of maybe jumping careers. But the lessons were prohibitively expensive.
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 4:18 PM
NeoGrec - sorry if I came across a bit hard. I am just fed up lately with all the TSA crap and other stuff effecting aviation when people don't know what they are doing.
For example, the TSA recently damaged a bunch of airplanes by trying to break into them to test the security. They damaged a very important external instrument that is critical to the onboard flight computers and could have caused serious safety problems if not caught by the pilots:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PilotsFuriousOver_TSADamagedAirplanes_198632-1.html
They have these newly hired TSA guys who have no idea what they are doing.
Anyway, done ranting...
Yes, I agree, a helicopter hovering over your house is very bad. Unless it is some kind of police activity, it should NOT be hovering anywhere over brooklyn. I had this happen to me sometime in the middle of the night a few months ago and yes, it is very annoying. However, this should not occur often. If it is regular flights they should just be passing overhead at 100MPH.
I would be concerned if helicopters are routinely hovering over your area.
Posted by: wintaki at September 12, 2008 4:26 PM
Wintaki: your long-winded rant is rendered worthless by the idiotic comparison of traffic noise to that of a hovering low-altitude helicopter!
Possibly the stupidest thing I've seen written on this blog - which is truly saying something...
Posted by: parkedslope at September 12, 2008 4:27 PM
Steve - look into flying fixed wing aircraft instead of that interests you. A lot cheaper then a helicopter.
Posted by: wintaki at September 12, 2008 4:27 PM
Thanks, Wintaki. I really think the problem in my nabe (Prospect Heights) is with traffic copters and I have a great deal less sympathy for their mission (gasp/surprise: there are back ups at GAP) than for the work of the NYPD.
Posted by: NeoGrec at September 12, 2008 4:43 PM
I did fixed wing. But you still needed (then, dunno about now) 20 hours minimum in rotary wing to get the sign off. And, even then, about the only gig I could have gotten was as a fish spotter because most choppers are turbines. And that training is where it gets REALLY expensive.
Shouldda done it in the military like my brother.
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 4:57 PM
parkedslope - Not true. You just prove my point that everyone has different opinions. *You* may not like the noise of aircraft, but I love it. Every time I hear a plane fly by, I look up. I could deal with that all day. But I can't stand people honking their horn for no reason (I love it how some people honk their horn immediately when the light turns green before anyone of normal human reaction times could even press the gas pedal).
I recognize you don't appreciate the air traffic, but that does not mean it is "worse" then auto traffic noise. You are just use to the auto traffic and probably drive yourself. You see the pilots as "other people" who bother you. But it works both ways.
Posted by: wintaki at September 12, 2008 6:42 PM
Gotta agree with wintaki. Noise is in the ear of the behearer. Me, I don't mind the helicopters much, and I live three blocks from the "Belt-Gowanus merge" that the traffic reporters talk about every morning, which means hovering choppers every morning.
I'm much more annoyed by retarded showboaters with loud bikes and boombox cars because they make as much racket as they can on purpose. It's simply making noise for the sake of making noise, like a bratty five year old trying to get attention. Helicopter pilots can't help that helicopters are loud.
Posted by: Steve at September 12, 2008 8:08 PM
I lived in Seattle next to Lake Union... you should try the seaplanes that take people on 30 min trips around the sky and then land. The sound is similar to a VERY large dirt bike, but there are a dozen of them.
Try sleeping in on a holiday like Valentine's Day or Labor Day with that ridiculous crap. There is basically a "runway" in the middle of the lake that is as busy as JFK. (OK, maybe not that busy.)
Also... give how "green" Seattle is. It smacks of ironic decadence.
Maybe if NYC actually got decent traffic cameras and traffic maps on the web that show the truth... maybe traffic helicopters would go away. Though, it's not like there are a lot of options if they announce X bridge is "slow." And maybe fuel costs will make the TV stations stop flying -- I think right now, they just have pilots on staff and feel like they should do something in between riots.
Posted by: tybur6 at September 12, 2008 9:25 PM
Steve@8:08 I agree completely, I hate those people on the loud bikes making as loud as possible. I can't understand that. Sometimes it is so loud it actually hurts my ears, and it comes out of no where all of a sudden.
Posted by: wintaki at September 12, 2008 9:59 PM
I live next to New York Harbor and the East River and often have helicopter traffic buzzing over my head all day. They are supposed to fly over the water when possible but they more often do not. It annoys me to no end when I sit out on my deck and cannot have a conversation because the helicopter traffic is too loud. I would be interested in doing what ever it takes to get helicopter pilots to follow these rules and fly over the water. The DHL helicopter, which is easy to spot, flies over my house several times a day, flagrantly ignoring the fly over water rule.
Posted by: Left Hook at September 13, 2008 12:58 AM
You normally sleep past 6? I am jealous. I need to get your job.
Posted by: valentinasmj at September 14, 2008 9:03 AM
you know....
if a helicopter is repeatedly flouting the rules, my instinct is there is a way to report them to the FAA.
Further, they might even care.
Posted by: slick at September 14, 2008 6:11 PM
These are 2 quick questions?
1. Is their much criminal activity in your area lately? These helicopters might be chasing down the bad guys.
2. Do you have problems sleeping and you're just blaming it on these helicopters? Maybe you need some type of sleep medication.
I grew up around a heliport in Los Angeles, CA owned by http://www.helinet.com. I've gotten so used to it in my childhood I don't hear it unless I'm flying in one. Of course my wife says that I'm deaf when I don't hear the children yelling at each other but that's a different topic.
Posted by: James Charters at November 25, 2008 12:47 AM
We have actually started a website with a petition, and information regarding this problem. http://www.helifreenyc.org
--Jake
Posted by: Jesq at March 10, 2009 10:20 AM
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