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September 28, 2008
Curb cut legal?
Hi folks,
I'm considering a property with a curb cut and a garage that was put in the mid 90s. The curb cut on the street looks official, but I want to make sure I am not paying a premium for something that is illegal and could be revoked at some point by the city. What permits am I looking for in the city records? I believe this info should be online at the DOB? At what point do they grandfather these things in. There is a post from April about a city law revoking people's curb cuts that concerns me. Please advise.
Comments
You might find permitting info online, but recommend that you read the following links. When it comes to curb cuts, it appears that more than one City agency prevails. Especially read the first link if the property is in a landmarked district:
LPC, Approvals for Work Required, page 32 --
http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/pubs/workguide.pdf
nyc.gov/html/dob/html/about/faq1.shtml
home2.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/sigrowth/driv_curb_parking_rules.pdf
home2.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/glossary.shtml
queenscrap.blogspot.com/2008/04/dcp-and-dob-have-different-curb-cut.html
Posted by: vinca at September 28, 2008 2:17 PM
A check of DOB filings should be enough. You need to have a DOT permit to get the DOB permit.
Posted by: Steve at September 28, 2008 3:17 PM
See this from DOB: http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dob/downloads/pdf/curbcuts.pdf
Posted by: vinca at September 28, 2008 4:02 PM
Thank you for the links I love you guys. This is not a landmark property or block. It seems that there are no DOB filings for the curb cut done around 1996 when other updates and permits were filed.. Since I will be paying a premium for this property based on the garage, how should I approach the owner? Do I base my offer on him obtaining permits? Is is no big deal? If I bought the property as is and the city somehow gets around to revoking my curb to drive into the garage, I would be screwed to say the least. Any suggestions?
Posted by: bqe1970 at September 28, 2008 4:59 PM
Also, it is an attached 2 family so I believe it should be a "side ribbon"
Posted by: bqe1970 at September 28, 2008 5:14 PM
Bear in mind that Howard Golden (past Brooklyn boro prez) commissioned a study which found that up to 90% of Brooklyn driveways were illegal. I've never been able to find the original study so I don't know if that means the curb cut was illegal or that the driveway was illegal in some other, possibly correctable way.
To my knowledge, the city hasn't been busting homeowners with illegal driveways unless they catch them in the act or a neighbor drops a 311 on them. There are some bills before the Council to change that but none have so far made it out of committee.
Posted by: Steve at September 28, 2008 6:45 PM
My take on this is a little different than Steve's: As a courtesy to the current owner, and under the assumption that you'd like your purchase to proceed smoothly, I'd ask your attorney to open a discussion with the seller's representative about the existence of curb cut permits and final sign-off. Having recently dealt with HPD's violation reissuance program, it's clear there's lots that doesn't show up online yet might still be lurking in forgotten file cabinets of city bureaucracy, even when you've searched diligently (including a title search). Depending on the outcome of your attorney's conversation, my personal recommendation is to visit whatever city agency in person. Yes, it's time consuming and often daunting, and yes, there's a chance you're opening a Pandora's box (therefore, speak with seller first), but I've always gotten good results from in-person visits, and always eventually been helped by at least one person who's given me more information than I first understood to ask or look for.
Some past or pending City Council hearings on curb cuts --
Transportation Committee meetings chaired by Councilman John Liu regarding:
Int 213 - A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to placing greater regulations and restraints on the creation of driveway curb cuts; ending self-certification of curb cuts by lot owners; and providing local community board notification. Proposed
Int 217-A - A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to demarcations at mid-block pedestrian ramps on curbs.
Int 620 - A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to requiring the illegally created curb cuts to be restored, making those who maintain illegally created curb cuts liable for penalties, requiring the department of transportation to restore illegally created curb cuts and providing for the reimbursement to the department for the cost for such work.
Int 639 - A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to the review of curb cuts.
Posted by: vinca at September 28, 2008 7:00 PM
Thank you vinca.
Can the owner file the permit retroactively?
Posted by: bqe1970 at September 28, 2008 7:42 PM
BQE1970: There are attorneys, architects, contractors, expediters, etc. who read these posts--but I'm none of those. While many Brownstoner posters are incredibly knowledgeable, creative and skilled (as well as, often, the obverse), it seems to me a bad idea to rely on online advice. Below are two more links to discuss with your attorney. The first link speaks a little about retroactive corrections, but does not yet appear to be law. Search for "curb" in the second link:
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/82090.htm
http://www.nyccouncil.info/html/legislation/legislation_introbyyear.cfm
Posted by: vinca at September 28, 2008 8:23 PM
Whatever, just bear in mind that for all practical purposes the owner is under no obligation to fix violations so you can only press the matter up to his "take it or leave it", the same as any other demand.
Yes, you can retroactively apply for a curb cut permit. But if your zoning prohibits parking in front of the house this is something that would have to be corrected.
Posted by: Steve at September 28, 2008 10:11 PM
Just get a car with higher clearance.... then it doesn't matter. Right?
Posted by: tybur6 at September 28, 2008 11:04 PM
Steve, how would I look up what my zoning prohibits? Also, the car would be in the garage not in the front of the house. I just need to make sure I can get into the garage legally with the curb cut.
Posted by: bqe1970 at September 29, 2008 11:56 AM
The zoning resolution is here:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/zonetext.shtml
Not an easy read.
Also call your local community board and ask for their help.
Posted by: SenatorStreet at September 29, 2008 3:55 PM
Thanks Senator Street. Thanks Vinca and Steve, I am consulting with my lawyer-obviously. I am not relying on online advice solely. However, it is my experience that the brownstoner community has a lot of collective knowledge that may save me a lot of grief. These links are a great starting point. Thanks all.
Posted by: bqe1970 at September 30, 2008 10:19 PM
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