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August 12, 2008
wildly divergent contractors' estimates
I'm trying to do some subsantial, though almost entirely cosmetic, work on the 3 rental apartments in my house. We've gotten quotes from four different contractors, and the estimates are WILDLY divergent, despite being quite specific about what we'd like done. We're talking a range from $50k to well over $100k... One of the very low quotes is from All Renovation, who seems to be recommended by many here. One of the high quotes comes from a firm we feel very confident about, but their price tips over what we have to spend. Any advice on how to choose?? I think I'd feel reasonably comfortable about All Reno's work (though not TERRIFIC, given a couple of mediocre reviews I've heard), but I'm very curious about how much OVER their actual estimate I should expect they might end up being.
Anyone know if All Reno tends to low-ball their estimates??
I'm afraid if we end up going with one of the lower quotes, they might be lowballing and end up costing as much as the higher quote anyway, without doing as good of work...
Advice?
Comments
I can't comment specifically on All Renovations work, but I can commiserate with you on the huge discrepancies between renovation estimates I received.
I have a standard tiny co-op bathroom and the estimates for the exact same work (replacing all fixtures and tile--materials supplied by me) were so far apart as to be comical. The lowest was $3,800 and the highest was over $24,000, for labor only. This is a basic pre-war bathroom that probably every contractor in Brooklyn has seen 100s of times over the years, there's not anything unusual about my bathroom that might cause the divergence in estimates I received.
We ended up choosing the contractor we felt most comfortable with, and they were neither the lowest nor highest bid (we received 5 bids). My only advice would be to continue getting estimates until you feel comfortable about what "fair" price is for the scope of work you've detailed. Some contractors will charge more for their own name cache, but they are not necessarily more skilled. Some just aren't really interested in the job and throw out a crazy-high number figuring why not--maybe you're a sucker.
You can also specifically address overages in your contract. Ask the contractor given worst case scenario, what would be the maximum increase over their initial estimate.
Posted by: setancre at August 12, 2008 9:26 AM
I had All Reno give me a rough estimate before we purchased our house. It was not a formal estimate but I had detailed exactly what I wanted. Then when the time came to start the work, their estimate went up by more than 100K and a substantial bit of the work we had discussed not included in that higher figure. Not sure if I had an isolated incident but that was my experience and it made me leary of them.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at August 12, 2008 10:00 AM
There are lots of reasons for this. The high estimates I've gotten here came from guys I suspected to be jobbers. Jobbers are kind of like general contractor contractors. They're independent operators who take care of a GC's advertising, client contact and sales but who really work for themselves. They negotiate a price with the GC privately then quote you a price, which includes their cut.
Naturally, if you were to negotiate with that GC directly you'd get a lower quote. But since a lot of GCs detest doing sales and wasting time competing on bids they won't talk to you unless it's a very expensive job.
Posted by: Steve at August 12, 2008 2:17 PM
I had a similar experience with our renovation, three bids, with the low one coming in under $100K and the high one nearly double that, the third in the middle. In the end we went with the high bidder because we felt he was being the most honest -- and in the end, his bid was just about accurate, within $5K, which is not the sort of story you hear often. The lower bidders just seemed to be unrealistic, and even if we paid a bit more, the quality of the work was excellent, and we felt we were being dealt with fair and square. I don't think you can put a price on that
I don't know anything about All Reno, but you are right to be suspicious of the lowest bid. That's an old trick. Best to go with the team you have the best gut feeling about, since you'll be living with them for a while -- and probably for longer than the time they've estimated for your job.
Posted by: Vanderman at August 12, 2008 3:57 PM
AllRenovation worked on my Brownstone in Windsor Terrace in 2005. I didn't have a problem with cost in relation to their quoted estimate or final contract numbers. I eventually had 2 change orders but that was due to some additional work that I decided AllRenovation could also handle. So my experience was not negative when it came to honoring their prices. The only numbers that changed were due to me requesting more work to be done (ie. HVAC work, cement work in my backyard, installing basement washer/dryer + boiler vent, new roof flashing, etc.) You can email me at adamkidron@hotmail.com for my contact # if you need more specifics. They were extremely honest workers and did a tremendous job so they deserve a good recommendation from me at the very least.
Good Luck,
Adam
Posted by: adamkidron at August 12, 2008 11:36 PM
Just be aware that sometimes those high bids come on behalf of slick-talking con men who are very good at reading a prospective client's financial resources and making him feel comfortable with them while they pick his bones.
I had a neighbor here who got taken to the cleaners by a high-priced GC whose work I considered to be at best mediocre. But, man, could he talk a good game. I almost always toss the low and high bid unless the GC comes highly recommended by someone whose judgment I trust or whose technical proficiency and professionalism I can judge for myself.
In any event, always, always ask around about a GC, as Tanner is doing.
Posted by: Steve at August 12, 2008 11:47 PM
I called All Reno about 2 months ago and was told they charge $300 to come out and do an estimate which is deducted from the final cost if I choose them. Being a first time homeowner I assumed that was how it was done. I was set straight by a few people here and cancelled the estimate with All Reno. I told her it was because if charging for an estimate and she didn't care at all. I guess they have plenty of work going and don't care about the jobs they lose.
I would be careful about going with the lowest bid unless you can accept that the actual job will probably run twice what they are estimating.
I got a preliminary rough estimate from another contractor. I thought about the job more and then had him come back and go over the whole thing with me again in more detail. As I expected, the second estimate was almost twice the rough one. The company is starting work next week and the job should last for 3 weeks. I will post a recommendation or not depending on how it turns out.
Posted by: premadas at August 13, 2008 12:00 AM
There may be a combination of factors behind the range -
When we did an overhaul of our apt., we also got a range you could shoot a cannon through. Our thinking at the time was that the really high guys simply didn't want the job - it's a small apt. and it was probably too piddly for them.
We did go with the lowball guy, with the full understanding that there could be some quality tradeoff. (We both work long hours and, frequently, weekends, so doing it all ourselves was not possible.) The apartment came together nicely, but if you look closely here and there, some cosmetics (evenness of tilework and grout, ceiling seams, edges of paint job) probably could be a little more polished. But it could have easily cost us twice as much, too. Don't get me wrong - it looks great - but if it were our "forever" home, we might have gone a different route.
Posted by: muffinhouse at August 13, 2008 7:52 PM
Yeah, I can sympathize. I had a quote from All Reno, which they did for free twice (since I put off the job for a year), however, they were the highest-priced. But, they (Pietro and Alex) seemed very reliable and prompt and professional, so if I could've afforded the extra 30K or so I would've gone with them. I'm surprised to hear that they came in lowest for the OP, but then we live at the bottom of the hill and probably got some really low-ball estimates. :-)
We have had a difficult time getting good estimates overall, most come in and look and then never prepare an estimate. We're going with our neighborhood contractor who gut renovated the house across the street and I have been over to see his work and also spoken to the owner and other neighbors for whom he worked, and they all like him. Fingers crossed.
Posted by: ohiise at August 13, 2008 10:21 PM
Well, I currently have started my own construction business with my partner in life and now business (after 6yrs)...so, in reference to the fees that contractors charge...well, it all depends on how many men will be on the job, cost of materials (if included in price), what needs to get done, how long it will take (note this is usually an estimate, so they sometime factor in anything that may come up like, if the job will go longer, thus not having to add any other fees to the owner). Please note they try to finish the job early in order to make a profit (sometimes).
Also when you are dealing with larger companies, you sometimes end up paying more becuase they have a higher overhead cost for their business and cater for these things.
If I were you, I would order and pay for the materials myself because it saves you a lot in the end. Also, because I do not know what exactly needs to get done in the apartment rentals, I would not be able to tell you which is the best ball park figure...there are some genuine contractors out there so ask questions (the contractors).
Good luck.
Posted by: nightingale at August 13, 2008 11:32 PM
Thanks, all.
We decided to go with the contractor who had the highest estimate because he was the only one I felt pretty confident about in terms of the work and also his honesty. He has been very willing to work with us to bring the number down--getting creative about finishes, etc, without doing a half-ass job. The only thing now is that I'm suddenly nervous we're way down on the priority list, given we're not going to be a big money-maker... Fingers crossed. I'll post a follow-up, including who the contractor is, after the work gets underway and then done...
Posted by: tanner at August 14, 2008 11:51 AM
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