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August 18, 2008

How many can live in 1 family house

Is there a limit on how many people can legally occupy a one-family home in NYC? There is a house on my block that has an extended family of about 15 adults and 9 kids. They do all appear to be family so I am certain that they are not running a rooming house, just wondering about saftey.

Posted by Just Wondering at 12:07 PM | Comments (24)
Categories: Building Code

Comments

There is a house on my block where an older woman lives with her adult son, and her other adult children and grandchildren come and go, visiting after work and throughout the weekend. So there is a lot of foot-traffic at all hours of familiar faces, but they don't all actually live there. The family has been a fixture on the block for the last 20+ years. If you were new to the area, you might assume they all slept there, but they don't, they are just a close-knit family and try to hang out with "grandma" as much as possible.

For the other part of your question, if in fact they are all sleeping there, I really have no idea if it's against code. I can't imagine it would be though, other than if they had illegal bedrooms (no windows), or other fire hazards that apply to any size structure. A single family home could have 6 bedrooms or 1 bedroom so you couldn't really base occupancy restrictions on its classification as "single-family" alone.

Posted by: setancre at August 18, 2008 12:40 PM

Do they own the house? Do they rent? If they're all family and you have no other complaints, like noise or whatever, why is it any of your business?

Posted by: east river at August 18, 2008 1:05 PM

If it's family, there is no limit whatsoever. However if people are sleeping in cellar space that's a violation. If there are 24 people in the house, that's a real close knit family.

Posted by: GUESS at August 18, 2008 1:23 PM

They are the recent additions to the area. We have been here for a while. It appears that they do own the home. They do make noise but it is to be expected with so many people. Nothing that I would complain about though. Although most of the neighbors would say otherwise.

The subject came up at a block association meeting and east river it is my and everyone elses business if having so many people created an unsafe condition and the children suffer because of it.

Posted by: Just Wondering at August 18, 2008 1:56 PM

Just wondering- I happen to agree such things are other people's business if there is a real reason to think anyone is in danger. If children look uncared for, or have bruises, if there are fights all the time, and too much noise etc. Other than that, would you really want a block association questioning what family members you can have in your house? By all means keep an eye on the situation but maybe they should be invited to be part of the block association?

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 2:12 PM

CHAPTER 2
HOUSING MAINTENANCE CODE
[table of contents]

SUBCHAPTER 3
PHYSICAL AND OCCUPANCY STANDARDS FOR DWELLING UNITS

Article 4
Minimum Room Sizes and Occupancy Regulations

Section
27-2074 Minimum Room Sizes
27-2075 Maximum Permitted Occupancy
27-2076 Prohibited Occupancies
27-2077 Conversions to Rooming Units Prohibited
27-2078 Rental of Rooms to Boarders
27-2079 Single Room Occupancy
27-2080 Maintenance of a Registry in Rooming House and Single Room Occupancy Buildings

http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/hmc/sub3/art4.html#27-2075

NYC Housing Guidelines

Sec. 27-2075 Maximum permitted occupancy
No dwelling unit shall be occupied by a greater number of persons than is permitted by this section.

Every person occupying an apartment in a class A or class B multiple dwelling or in a tenant-occupied apartment in a one- or two-family dwelling shall have a livable area of not less than eighty square feet. The maximum number of persons who may occupy any such apartment shall be determined by dividing the total livable floor area of the apartment by eighty square feet. For every two persons who may lawfully occupy an apartment, one child under four may also reside therein, except that a child under four is permitted in an apartment lawfully occupied by one person. No residual floor area of less than eighty square feet shall be counted in determining the maximum permitted occupancy for such apartment.

The floor area of a kitchen or kitchenette shall be included in measuring the total liveable floor area of an apartment but the floor area for private halls, foyers, bathrooms or water closets shall be excluded.


A living room in a rooming unit may be occupied by not more than two persons if it has a minimum floor area not less than one hundred ten square feet in a rooming house, or one hundred thirty square feet in a single room occupancy.

Posted by: Chaka at August 18, 2008 2:17 PM

They were invited but did not come which is how the subject came up. My concern is the children. The neighbors adjacent to them have other concerns.

I have read about homes catching fire and many of these homes where there are fatalities were homes with lots of people.

Neighbors not questioning who came and went from hundreds of Brownstones all over Brooklyn is was led to many of them becoming crackhouses. Not that we think that they are selling crack. Neighbors beginning to question is how neighborhoods began to change for the better. If I had a lot of traffic in and out of my home how would my neighbors know who was family and of course they would question it if it began to affect their quality of life. Just as you would Bxgrl. Thanks for the info Chaka.

Posted by: Just Wondering at August 18, 2008 2:57 PM

Can anyone confirm that the housing code posted applies to owners of a single-family home? It appears to me that it only applies to tenants in a landlord-controlled space.

Posted by: setancre at August 18, 2008 3:11 PM

I was wondering the same. A co-worker just told me that the people residing in your home are considered tenants. She said that when she asked her college-aged daughter to leave her home for a number of transgressions and the girl took her to court and WON! The girl lived in the same bedroom that she had lived in for years and never paid rent but was considered a tenant who had been illegally evicted when her mom put her out!

I guess it would be up to a judge to decide how to interpret tenancy in this case.

Posted by: Chaka at August 18, 2008 3:30 PM

I think "affect my quality of life" is the operative phrase. You don't mention what issues they are causing for their adjoining neighbors, nor do you give any particular reason for concern about the children. Beyond a vague mention of fire (and fires can happen anywhere, anytime to anyone). Other than there are a lot of family members living together in the house you haven't given any specific reason for your concern. If the people in the house are creating problems of course it has to be addressed but if they own the house and you know they're all family, what do you think should happen?

It's an oversimplification to think crack houses abounded because neighbors didn't question who went in and out of brownstones. Unless I'm doing something illegal, or creating a real danger, no one has the right to question what I do in my own house. People who need that much control over their neighbors live in gated communities.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 3:36 PM

bxgrl,

You really read way too much into many of these posts. People on the block were talking and I was JUST WONDERING. That simple. Don't need to live in a gated community because I don't need control over my neighbors. But even outside of gated communities there are rules as to what you can an can't do in your home. Those rules protect us all. That said, if my neighbors have issues with these people, they can post to the forum on Brownstoner to seek help in finding resolution to their problems.

And of course, knucklehead, there were other reasons why crack houses abounded! Again your're reading way too much into this. Be easy.

Posted by: Just Wondering at August 18, 2008 3:52 PM

thanks, clown. I will.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 3:58 PM

Bxgrl, you really do read too much into some of these posts. I tried to help you out the other day but you always slide back down that slippery slope of name calling and then get upset when others do it to you.

Posted by: Chaka at August 18, 2008 4:13 PM

Chaka- Just wondering called me a knucklehead. I don't start the name calling and I don't usually indulge in it unless I am attacked first, so I don't know where you get off pointing fingers at me as there are far many others who have made name calling and nastiness an art form here. And if you actually read the crown heights thread why don't you point out what name-calling I did? So do us both a favor. Don't "help me" because you obviously have a problem with me and I find your superior attitude offensive.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 4:54 PM

Yes while that is true bxgrl, your post preceding that one did take a very accusatory and IMHO, a wrong turn.

Posted by: Chaka at August 18, 2008 6:18 PM

You have a good night dear.

Posted by: Chaka at August 18, 2008 6:19 PM

right- because I asked for more information on a thread posted by someone asking for opinions? Right. You have issues. I don't need them foisted on me, thanks.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 6:39 PM

And one last thing, dear- why don't you take a look at Just wondering's last post on that Crown Heights thread before you go defending her. "'Caribbean' vs African American? Most of them are Black i.e. African-American! There is no 'Caribbean' American category on any census or other type of form requiring a racial/cultural distinction. I never even understood the term 'Hispanic.' I know 'Hispanic' people that are Black, White and one who would technically qualify as Asian."

If that's not offensive, IMHO, I wonder what is in yours?

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 6:47 PM

If you read that post and subsequent posts on any other thread you will see that I am all of those things. I don't like having to check anyone of those boxes because I could fit into any of those cultural designations. It is offensive to me to have to choose between my Asian, African or European heritages. You really need to go to bed, get laid, have a drink or something. Chill. Get a friend or a job that you like. Something.

Posted by: Just Wondering at August 18, 2008 6:58 PM

But it's not offensive to tell Caribbean Americans they don't exist because the US census doesn't say so? You may have an issue with choosing, but there are others who don't.

Trust me I have plenty in my life besides brownstoner. More than enough that I don't have to sit and count how many people live in the house down the block. Seems I'm not the only one who should get a friend or a drink or something. You and Chaka have a good night and a good life.

Posted by: bxgrl at August 18, 2008 7:19 PM

You know, I was just talking to my next-door neighbor last night about how difficult it is to find the right balance between being nosy and letting your neighborhood lapse into awfulness.

I live on a block in Bed Stuy that has had a strong block association and sense of community since forever. And a large part of that is being nosy. Looking at your neighbors and seeing who's selling drugs, and getting the police involved. Walking up to someone and demanding that they get the car on blocks out of their yard. Asking someone if they need help planting something nice in their garden.

Sometimes this attention to others goes too far. I have gotten the talk-to for leaving dog poop in my front yard on a cold rainy day when I didn't have a bag, and I landscaped my front yard much sooner than I wanted to.

But I wouldn't have it any other way. My block is so much nicer than the surrounding neighborhood--it's really an oasis. It's got way more trees than surrounding blocks. It only had one crack house in the 80's. It's a place where everybody knows everybody else's name. It's the safest place I have ever lived.

In that context, I think Just Wondering raises legit questions in a basically thoughtful way.

I think it's really easy for folks to try to have it both ways: to assume that you can buy a home in a neighborhood with poor people in it without impacting poor people's choices. But homeowners on an urban block are in a position of leadership, and *should* care about unsafe situations like twenty people living in an apartment, or even ugly situations like a makeshift garage with a couple of cars on blocks in front of someone's illegal curb-cut. There's no reason to be callous or haughty, but it's important to be interested and aware, and have standards that you hold your block to.

It's a balancing act. And I think Just Wondering is doing a good job of balancing. I think anyone here who's giving her grief should step off.

Posted by: vanburenproud at August 19, 2008 8:02 AM

"I have read about homes catching fire and many of these homes where there are fatalities were homes with lots of people."

Those tragic fires happen all the time in overcrowded houses, and it's the children who die because they freeze in fear in a fire; also children are often crowded all in one room together, often in dangerous attic and basement spaces. Or even walk-in closets serve as kid's rooms in these situations. The reasons why there are regulations on how many people can sleep in each room are the same as those for a theater or club's max capacity laws -- it's about how quickly people can exit a space in a fire. They don't make these regulations just to get all up in people's business, Bxgrl. There are one of these very kinds of fires in crowded houses several times a year in NYC or nearby cities. I remember seeing one happened just within the last couple weeks in a nearby city, where several children died.

Posted by: traditionalmod at August 19, 2008 9:45 AM

Van Buren Proud and Traditional Mod. Well said.

Posted by: Chosen at August 20, 2008 4:43 PM

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