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July 21, 2008
thinking of Ditmas Park
Any comments about the victorian flatbush area from residents out there? We have one child and are thinking of purchasing something in the Ditmas Park area. Ideally we'd love a 2 family however we are not seeing many on the market in the SWARM. People must rent out part of those one families, even the smallest of those "victorian mansions" is huge. It seems like such a bargain in comparison to Brownstone Brooklyn. TIA for your input.
Comments
The SWARM streets are in DITMAS PARK WEST. Most of us are on 40x100 lots with 2400-2600 square feet of living space. While our housing stock is predominatly one family, there are 2 and 3 family homes. Some were built as multiples and others were converted years ago. While there may be a few homeowners that have boarders and a couple of houses have illegal basement rentals, most families occupy all of the space themselves. In an effort to preserve the neighborhood we do take illegal use and construction very seriously.
Recommended brokers are Mary Kay Gallagher and Dan Shapiro, of Madison Properties who is a long time DPW resident. Corcoran and some of the others from ouside the neighborhood tend to overprice their listings.
Posted by: MOSHE at July 21, 2008 7:05 PM
I grew up there. A big problem in the area is the lack of decent shopping within walking distance. If you are near Cortelyou Rd and E.15 you can shop at the Food Coop without being a member but their prices are steep. Coney Island Avenue has become entirely Pakistani and Mexican, and their stores and restaurants are not clean. All in all the area is on the seedy side. There are no cultural activites in walking distance. You will have to leave the neighborhood for just about anything you want to do or purchase. Its been that way for a very long time and shows no sign of changing. I attended both PS 217 and Ditmas JHS. I wouldn't dream of sending my children to either now. The streets are very quiet and deserted, not a good place to let children play unattended.
I moved away from there to Bay Ridge 25 years ago and I never regretted it. I just purchased my first home in Bay Ridge two weeks ago. My mother still owns her home on Glenwood Road near CIA. She has finally come to realize it is time for her to seriously consider selling and leaving the area. She is getting too old to have to travel to do her weekly food shopping and is afraid to walk even in the daytime there alone.
You ought to take a drive through BR before you decide on Flatbush. Ride on Third Ave from 69th St to 86th St. Then go up and down the numbered streets between 3rd Avenue and Shore Road and look at the homes. Many are for sale and at the same size and prices as in Flatbush.
Posted by: premadas at July 21, 2008 11:33 PM
Bay Ridge and ditmas park are different vibes. I like Bay Ridge stores and Ditmas Park location. Money buys more house in Ditmas Park.
Posted by: slick at July 22, 2008 4:26 AM
We just did something similar: moved from a coop in the slope to a house in ditmas. And we haven't regretted it for a second. We haven't experienced the area as "seedy" as premadas claims. Yes, it's very diverse. And that can be a great thing. Since we live right off of Cortelyou, we haven't found the shopping/services to be that bad. It's not the slope, but that can also be a good thing. The vibe is far more mellow, neighborly, and friendly.
Think outside of SWARM. The # streets, like 16th-19th have lots of 2 families. And they tend to be a bit bigger. Because they aren't in SWARM, they also tend to be more affordable. Yet not much difference in terms of quality of life--especially if you stay around Cortelyou, Dorchester, etc. Good luck.
Posted by: lhb at July 22, 2008 9:32 AM
SWARM?
Posted by: Bessie at July 22, 2008 10:12 AM
SWARM stands for Stratford, Westminster, Argyle, Rugby and Marlborough, the five streets off of CIA. We bought a two family on Rugby a couple of years ago, just finishing a major renovation, and we love the hood. We have an infant and find the area to be kid and family friendly. It is quite diverse, we feel very safe here. True, it definitely helps to have a car and be able to drive for shopping/restaurants, etc, but overall a good quality of life for a young family.
Posted by: mh at July 22, 2008 11:45 AM
OP: have you checked out the 2 family for sale on Argyle (listed with both Julie Kestyn and Mary Kay)? We recently moved to Ditmas Park West from Brooklyn Heights and agree it is a bargain compared to Brownstone Brooklyn. I have to say that I couldn’t disagree more with the earlier post, as we moved here precisely because it was a safe, quiet, beautiful, and friendly place to raise a family with decent schools (both PS 139 and 217), increasing amenities, and a diverse population. We have been more than happy with amenities in the neighborhood -- we are a very short walk to Prospect Park, the Sunday farmer's market, two organic grocery stores, two coffee shops, two great restaurants with more on the way, a great little wine store, an awesome artisanal Italian ice shop, several yoga classes, a great old-school watering hole, and much more. We also love the interaction with people of many different cultures and try and take advantage of the ethnic markets, bakeries and restaurants in the area (not only Mexican and Pakistani/Bangladeshi but also Tibetan, West Indian, Jewish, Turkish, Eastern European, and more). We frequent many of these establishments for groceries and cheap, delicious food and find them to be perfectly “clean” and inviting by our relatively high standards. Contrary to being “seedy” or “deserted” we think that this neck of the woods has some of the most beautiful blocks in Brooklyn, if not all of New York City, and some very active neighborhood associations, and we love sitting on our porch and watching the children play in the street and the parade of passersby, young and old. To the OP, best of luck with your search, and let us know if you have any more specific questions about the neighborhood!
Posted by: westminster at July 22, 2008 12:26 PM
I would disagree with premadas about the neighborhood's seediness. Twenty-five years ago Flatbush was a much different place than it is now - but you can say the same for Brooklyn in general.
I live in West Midwood. There are many great Pakistani/Afghani/Bangladeshi restaurants on CIA, as well as a handful of more yuppie spots on Cortelyou, and now at Newkirk and Argyle. You can make the trip down to Avenue J for some excellent Kosher bakeries.
The Kent movie theater at CIA and Avenue H is a very convenient walk. Brooklyn College sometimes has some pretty interesting live music, dance, and theater. We have an OK Key Food on Foster and Rugby, and Shop Rite on McDonald is a short drive or bus ride, with plenty of indoor parking. The basics like bank branches, hardware store, wine store, diner, bagel place, Mexican, pizza, and Chinese restaurants are all at Newkirk Plaza. And plentiful fruit stands on CIA.
From this end of the neighborhood, Prospect Park is a pretty good hike or bike ride away, which is a drag. I'm looking forward to the opening, by year's end, of Brooklyn College's new athletic center. Having a brand new gym, including indoor pool, in the neighborhood will be nice.
In some ways it's a much more suburban vibe than brownstone neighborhoods, but it has an ethnic diversity you won't find there. I don't think you can stand on a subway platform in Park Slope and overhear conversations in Urdu, Bangla, Yiddish, Haitian Creole, Russian, and Spanish, the way you do here.
The truth is that most of the nicer housing stock is better suited to a family of seven than a family of three, but there are some two-families available. Or do what a lot of my neighbors have done, and open a bed and breakfast.
Posted by: Flatbushwhacker at July 22, 2008 1:51 PM
I can see why my old neighborhood would be enticing to some since the homes are huge and affordable. When I was there it was all Italian, Irish and Jewish, with shops catering to the likes of those groups. I don't feel comfortable or welcome in the Pakastani shops. I guess because I lived there when it was in was a newer, more vibrant area, I see the changes as bringing down the areas atractiveness and safety. There is not one store that was there in the 60's-80's that still exists...unless you count the Kent theatre. There used to be a bowling alley on CIA off Newkirk. The Jewish delis, bakeries and Grillos seafood are long gone. There were hardware stores, butcher shops, dress shops and shoe stores along Foster Avenue. I know comparing then and now is in vain, but knowing how it used to be I find it very depressing to visit the area now.
My mother did say that a French restaurant opened on Newkirk and Rugby. She ate there and said it was very good. But be careful of the Key Food on Foster off Rugby, the food there is often sold beyond its expiration date. Her house is on Glenwood btw Argyle and Rugby, you must live very near to that, Flatbushwhacker. Did you know there used to be a large stone overpass with 2 staircases on either side that went over the train tracks on Glenwood and connected both sides of the neighborhood? It was so easy to walk to Midwood HS and Bklyn College that way. When the stairs collapsed in the 80's the residents decided not to rebuild in order to try to keep out the crime wave coming over from Ocean Avenue at the time because many of the homes were being burglarized.
Posted by: premadas at July 22, 2008 11:52 PM
Thanks premadas -- as a newcomer to the neighborhood, it's always interesting to hear the opinions of those who lived here in the past. I really love how many old-timers still live in the neighborhood, but I also appreciate the mix of continuity and change. We recently met someone who was born and raised on our block but who had moved away a while back (although her family still lives in the same house) and she, like you, was expressing her astonishment at how much the neighborhood had changed in recent years -- but from her perspective, for the better! – with the recent influx of yuppies and amenities, decrease in crime, restoration of houses, etc. It's also interesting to think of the neighborhood as "newer" and “more vibrant” when you lived here in the sixties, since I would guess that the WASPs that colonized the area when it was first converted from farmland to suburban housing at the turn of the century would have viewed the next wave of Jewish, Italian, and Irish inhabitants as suspiciously as you do the recent waves of immigrants. By the way, the Jewish stores still abound, just a little farther south, and Pomme de Terre (the bistro on Newkirk) is excellent -- I recommend you check it out next time you're in the area!
Posted by: westminster at July 23, 2008 12:36 PM
According to some of my neighbors who've been there for decades, the neighborhood was headed in a bad way back in the 1960s and 1970s. They say that banks redlined anything north of the LIRR cut, assuming it would all turn into slum.
I'm told the pedestrian bridge on Glenwood was a good place for kids to hang out, smoke and drink away from prying eyes. But also an easy place for muggings.
I agree the Foster Avenue commercial strip is hurting, and has been for a long time. But Key Food under its current ownership is a lot better than it used to be. It no longer smells like something crawled into their ventilation system to die. There's definitely still a ways to go in terms of commercial amenities. I think the relative lack of services is because the houses all have driveways, and it's so easy to jump in the car to do your dining or shopping in other neighborhoods. You don't have to spend your money locally. It's not like in brownstone neighborhoods where even if you have a car, you're reluctant to take the car and risk losing a good parking spot.
Posted by: Flatbushwhacker at July 23, 2008 1:43 PM
Thanks all for your feedback.
Westminster, yes, I've seen the 2 fam on Argyle. There is a slope in middle of it, visible from the outside as well, that does not seem too repairable, of course I am not an engineer and I expect all old houses to settle, but I think this sort of visible structural problem is beyond what I'm comfortable getting involved with.
There were a few one families listed just under one million, one of which on Argyle/glenwood was fairly renovated.
I don't seem to feel as comfortable in W. Midwood as I did in Ditmas Park West. I do like the newish stuff on Cortelyou. However, as flatbushwhacker mention, I am not overly concerned about local amenities since I'll have a car and my own driveway-big fantasy in itself.
I also read in the forums that South Midwood did not have as strong of a neighborhood association. Please comment about the various neighborhood groups if anyone has any opinions.
Posted by: bqe1970 at July 23, 2008 2:32 PM
The West Midwood Association is pretty busy. They sponsor a bunch of annual get-togethers and put out a quarterly newsletter. There's a core group of people there who make newcomers feel very welcome. http://www.westmidwood.org/index.htm
That house at Glenwood and Argyle looks pretty sweet from the outside, but I have no idea about its interior condition. The LDS church across the street is pretty quiet as churches go - not a very raucous style of worship. And the missionaries are so cute, always walking around in pairs.
One thing I'd warn you about is that these houses are as much hobby as shelter. They're best for people who are into the whole This Old House thing.
Posted by: Flatbushwhacker at July 23, 2008 4:07 PM
Since we're new to the area, I don't know much about the other neighborhood associations, but I can tell you that our DPW association seems pretty active and welcoming.
Are you talking about 766 Argyle? We saw the inside and it's in good shape and pretty charming (loved the oak staircase and the fifties kitchen). I think it's looking pretty attractive at under a million and I know the sellers are anxious so you could probably make them an offer.
Posted by: westminster at July 25, 2008 12:34 PM
yep we had a second look today. The block seems nice as well. I wish it were closer to Cortelyou. I would personally like a little bigger kitchen. I agree its priced well, there is nothing wrong with it, we just didn't love it.
Posted by: bqe1970 at July 27, 2008 8:01 PM
Hey Moshe and other residents, what do you think of a listing that has a "hospitality" suite in the basement? I would think that sort of thing is common.
Posted by: bqe1970 at July 27, 2008 8:04 PM
A "hospitality suite" is the realtor's term for an illegal cellar apartment. Common in advertisinging in other neighborhoods, I have not seen the term used in Victorian Flatbush in recent years. The Flatbush neighborhood associations are pretty vigilant about such building code violations and the reputable brokers are well aware of this. Years ago, there were several fire deaths in illegal cellar apartments in the neighborhood. Under NYC building code storage and recreational space are the only permitted uses of cellars.
Posted by: MOSHE at July 29, 2008 4:18 PM
yep, thanks. It was a nice house. I think I would be more comfortable waiting for a 2 family to come on the market.
Posted by: bqe1970 at July 31, 2008 10:50 PM
I haven't checked this thread for a while. Ok here's the thing... My mother owns the green/white house that is next to the one for sale at Glenwood/Argyle. I used to babysit for the people who owned it before the current owner. The owner before that was a wealthy family whose son worked for DC comics in the late 60's and once a month he would bring me a stack of every comic that they published.
I'm not thrilled with the look of the current owner's DIY landscaping on the front lawn, which used to be all grass with just one large bush at the front corner.
I was one of "those teenagers" who hung out on the Glenwood Rd pedestrian bridge in the 70's. The neighbors called the police on us regularly...but I only lived a block away. In those days kids went outside to socialize, they didn't have supervised activities, computers and playdates the way kids do now. There were a few muggings on the bridge back then. The criminal element came from the tenements on Ocean Avenue and a few SROs that were on Avenue H.
I know my mother's house is an eyesore but it is structurally sound. She does not have the funds to keep it up and is hoping to sell it within the next few years. It is a legal 2 family, with a finished attic that has 2 huge separate bedrooms and a huge bathroom. You wouldn't beleive how gorgeous it was landscaped in the 60's and 70's.
All the neighbors on the block and around the corners are nice people and good neighbors, some are original owners from the 50's and 60's, or their children. I know many of them. Most of the backyards then were used to grow our own fruits and vegetables which all the neighbors harvested and shared. We had cherry tress and a big grapevine. Other people had tomatoes, corn and beans. It was quite an area to grow up in.
The church is very quiet, I beleive it is Korean now. When we were kids (before they fenced in the lawn) they had picnics and touch football games there weekly.
Also, the house on the corner of Glenwood and Westminister, with the old picket fence around it, is for sale. Its a great 2 family because there are completely separate entrances - one of Glenwood and the other on Westminister so the occupants have total privacy. I can get more info from the owner if anyone is interested.
Posted by: premadas at August 6, 2008 9:55 AM
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