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July 18, 2008
Things to Look for When Buying a Brownstone
I am a potential first-time brownstone buyer and am coming from a highrise coop, so I do not know how to assess brownstones. Aside from a schedule of major maintenance performed (rood, boiler etc), monthly utilities costs, and who the neighbors are, can anyone tell me the important questions to ask about the building?
Thank you
Comments
It's all about quickly educating yourself with the issues. I would recommend going over to the NYPL, particularly the business and science branch library at 34th and Madison. They have bunches of books there devoted to inspections and house purchasing, issues involving mortages, there's a whole aisle devoted to exactly this. Dive in.
If you want one particular answer key, read "Renovating Old Houses" by Nash -- it has an overview of almost every technical issue you'd need to know.
Posted by: Smokychimp at July 18, 2008 2:24 PM
Your inspector/engineer will tell you about the infrastructure issues. Smokychimp's advice is excellent too. You should know what you're up against with an old house because you will be its maintenance company.
On the "who the neighbors are" thing, get their opinions of the neighborhood too. When I saw this place I asked a few of the locals what they thought was the worst/most annoying thing about the block. One said "the Manhattan commute" but two said there was a psycho drug dealer renting a basement apartment down the street who had equally psycho friends who made noise all night long. Fortunately, the second problem was fixed by the feds a month later in a joint raid by the DEA, ATF and NYPD. He was subsequently sentenced to 18 years.
Posted by: Steve at July 18, 2008 3:19 PM
Ultimately a structural engineer will identify the most important issues. You can also buy a book about home inspections so, while you're looking, try to assess the general condition of the house by checking some of the following:
-- Does the staircase pull away from the party wall or is it straight and solid?
-- Are the floors flat and firm to the tread. Or are they squeaky, spongy or tilting? Is the wood in good condition?
-- If the floors are covered with carpet or linoleum will the sellers show you at least a portion of what's underneath?
-- What condition are the walls in? Buckled, cracked old plaster indicates the need for a skimcoat job.
-- Are the ceilings bulging or cracked? Is there evidence of water damage (on walls as well as ceilings)?
-- What condition are the windows in? Are they wood or aluminum? Are they double-glazed. Do they fit tightly and open easily? Do they have fitted screens?
-- Do the doors close snugly or are they crooked with gaps showing?
-- What's the condition of the kitchens and bathrooms? Be sure to run the faucets and shower; also flush the johns.
-- What's the condition of the front facade?
-- Does the rear wall need repointing?
-- In the cellar, is their evidence of past flooding (water stains on walls and floor)? Evidence of damp or mold? Termite damage (look for long vertical trails on beams and walls, about the width of a pencil)? Is the brick or stone of the weight-bearing columns in good condition and well pointed? Does the cellar have a sump pump or dry well? What condition are the hatches in (front and rear)?
The list is endless but don't be shy to ask both the broker and sellers about the condition of the house, recent problems, what they have fixed/replaced/repaired
Posted by: NeoGrec at July 18, 2008 5:22 PM
I meant to add: Brokers will often act dumb when you ask them practical questions about the condition of a house, age of a major appliance etc. But that's harder for the homeowners. Ask all the questions you need to ask, just remember to be polite and respectful. Good luck. And the more houses you look at, the keener your eye will become.
Posted by: NeoGrec at July 18, 2008 5:33 PM
Hey NeoGrec that was a solid piece of advice. I think we all learned a thing or two. Thanks a lot.
Posted by: pierre de taille at July 18, 2008 5:49 PM
Also, take lots and lots of pictures, even of stuff you don't think matters.
You could even go to the extreme that someone on Old House Web did with a house he was looking at in Indiana. He uploaded all his shots to Flickr and posted a link to them on the OHW forums, asking for comments. People found lots of interesting things in those pictures that even the guy's inspector missed.
Posted by: Steve at July 19, 2008 11:42 AM
I am a basically gullible person who bought a house with "good bones" that was actually made entirely of drywall and newspaper--lots of structural damage.
Advice I would offer based on my worst-case-scenario homebuying experience:
1. Pay for the best inspector you can find, and don't use the realtor's inspector.
Our inspector claimed that our house was totally solid when it was not. This seems to happen all the time. There seems to be little you can do about it.
2. Whenever you see a dropped ceiling, unexplainable soffit, a strange transition between floors, or if one room seems much more narrow than the next, assume that drywall is hiding something. Bring it to your inspector's attention, and have him/her do a little more looking there.
Example: The floors felt solid in my house because they were hastily built platforms sitting on the totally rotten subfloor--built of 2x4 with lots of scraps toed in to stiffen and create the effect of a solid floor. If I had asked myself why the floors were a different height from room to room, I would have maybe figured this out.
3. Don't skip talking to your neighbors and hanging out on the street. We wound up buying our place because it was on a really really nice block, and to this day we thank our lucky stars that our neighbors are friendly and the street is quiet. During remodeling-with-plentiful-surprises, we consoled ourselves by remembering that we could change all the bad structural problems, but we couldn't change the character of the block.
Posted by: vanburenproud at July 19, 2008 1:38 PM
NeoGrec's list is great because even if you have an inspector you do need to look for telltale signs yourself, like vanburenproud's uneven level floors he mentioned, and then ask your inspector about it. Insist the inspector answer your questions to your satisfaction. I had a friend who pointed out cracks in a basement (out on Long Island), the inspector dismissed it as nothing. Turned out there were huge problems with the foundation after she bought the place. Trust your eyes and your instincts if you see something that's weird to you.
That said there are certain typical flaws in every brownstone so don't get overly nitpicky or you won't find a house to buy. Like there will always be some sloping of floors. You just don't want stairs separating from the walls with that sloping, as the other pointed out.
Posted by: traditionalmod at July 20, 2008 11:37 AM
thank you all for your responses.
Posted by: jfelds at July 20, 2008 9:33 PM
This may spark debate, and may or may not be possible for you, depending on your comfort level with renovation and the neighborhoods you're looking in. But if I had one more piece of advice to give, I would consider buying a shell that you *know* will need tons of work, and use the price break to pay for a renovation.
I honestly would never buy an old house that's been renovated by someone else again.
I live in Bed Stuy, and on my search found a good number of homes that were in horrible shape, but had everything out in the open. They were never badly renovated by a slumlord in the seventies. They didn't have layers and layers of work that could have been done by anyone. Usually, they had been vacant for ages, had a lot of "original details" and you could see exactly what needed to be done.
These homes scared me, because I "knew" I didn't have the money for a renovation, or to pay for an apartment during the renovation. I bought something that I didn't like cosmetically, but thought was solid, for about $200K more.
In hindsight, this was really stupid. I did wind up having to scrape about $150K together for a very complete renovation (we have very simple taste), and I had to live in the house while it was happening. *And* I had to pay about $10,000 to get all the old crappy work that was obscuring all my water and termite damage removed!
I think the math on this depends a lot on your skill level and your taste. But honestly, I have talked to enough bad, expensive contractors, and seen enough scary stuff inside my own walls to know that looks can be deceiving, and that a whole
Posted by: vanburenproud at July 21, 2008 12:14 PM
Vanburenproud, your comment got cut off, please finish your thoughts. I think your argument actually makes economic sense as well especially since I've had the same experience of undoing the bad 70s renovation. Better to see what you are getting into.
Posted by: bqe1970 at July 21, 2008 7:05 PM
Hey bge,
Glad I am not the only one brought (momentarily) down by the 70s reno.
Let's see. The only thing I would add is that there are a lot of unscrupulous/lazy/really-a-handyman contractors out there who do messed up stuff and get away with it because it's relatively hidden. I get a lot of peace of mind knowing that I either did or oversaw all the work that's holding my house together. I like knowing exactly what is happening under my floors and inside my walls.
It's just that I wound up paying *twice* for that privilege, and I only needed to pay once.
Posted by: vanburenproud at July 22, 2008 2:28 PM
You need to know:
The age of the roof and condition
The age and condition of the furnace
Avoid anything that had extensive water damage(always more damage hidden)
Check for insect damage
Make sure there is adequate insulation
How updated is the electrical and plumbing system
Ignore minor visual problems and focus on things that will cost you money within 5 to 10 years..
Posted by: Iknow at July 22, 2008 9:59 PM
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