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July 6, 2008
Radiant heat under Bamboo floor
We are renovating a house and are thinking to put in radiant heat and bamboo floors. I think this applies to any hardowwd floor, but is and "engineered" floor better to use then "solid"? I was told at iFloor that I am better off with a engineered bamboo...Anyone know better?
Comments
You're better off with an engineered floor, whether or not it's bamboo is another issue.
Posted by: denton at July 6, 2008 4:48 PM
I had radiant heat installed and went with solid wood over engineered and have no regrets. At the time it was a dilemna as I didn't know which way to go, and I wasn't comfortable with engineered wood figuring I could only resurface it a limited number of times. I went with a maple wood 2 1/4 wide and haven't had any issues.
Posted by: LaurenWalsh at July 6, 2008 5:03 PM
Yes, solid wood.
Posted by: LaurenWalsh at July 6, 2008 7:05 PM
Radiant heat is most efficient when it can be used with a low water temperature. Engineered floors are low-mass products that pass, rather than retain, heat they get from the water in the tubing.
Hardwood floors with radiant heat is just an ok idea. Not great. It's benefits are realized in comfort, not efficiency.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at July 6, 2008 7:29 PM
...well what type of flooring is recommended with radiant heating then? I know probably 90% of all people I know both here in NY or out of state have hardwood...so I dont understand why there would be such a thing as radiant heating if it was no good under hard wood.
Posted by: nybk01 at July 6, 2008 9:38 PM
It's not that hardwood is "no good," MP's response clearly shows why engineered wood is better (more efficient.)
And probably not true about hardwood flooring being 90%, I'd say most mass produced houses have ply sub with carpet, or sheet. And radiant heating itself is not all that common.
Posted by: cmu at July 7, 2008 10:04 AM
Lauren Walsh,
Quite a risky move to go with a solid maple floor over radiant heat. You could not have chosen a more unstable wood. The fact that it is only a 2 1/4 wide certainly helps prevent too much expansion and contraction but still I would be very surprised if you tell me that you do not see gaps between the boards in the winter time.
To the OP, bamboo should work okay, engineered bamboo would be more efficient and give you much less of a problem with gaps between boards.
Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 10:04 AM
10:04,
I think I will go with the engineered...I have seen this stuff in wide planks (6 inches or so), and thisnner planks (3 1/2 inches or so). Is it correct that I am better off with the thinner planks of 3 1/2 inches?
Also, I assume I need to float the floor? But I read that I can also glue it...is that true also?
Posted by: nybk01 at July 7, 2008 10:44 AM
I'm gonna say it as bluntly as I can: avoid engineered flooring. I installed a high-end Mannington engineered oak floor in the hallway and all rooms in my second floor and I'm so freakin' sorry I did so.
Ignore the glowing praise about the 20 year finish warranty. The problem with engineered flooring isn't the finish. It's the underlayment -- the plywood backing under the veneer layer. Like any softwood plywood it compresses so the floor dents and gouges like crazy. It took about a month before my large dogs started making the floors look shabby, especially at the top of the stairs where they do their racing turns. Meanwhile, the six year older solid oak floor at the bottom of the stairs looks fine.
My neighbor installed an engineered floor in his basement just before his daughter's wedding reception. The next day there were divots all over the floor from womens' high heels.
Bottom line, a solid plank floor costs about the same as an engineered floor. The only thing you buy with engineered flooring is an easier installation.
You just reminded me that I need to write an article about this for BrooklynRowHouse.
Posted by: Steve at July 7, 2008 3:07 PM
Slow day, Stoner?
Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 3:45 PM
3:07, As I understand it, plywood is not the only option for the backing. There are also engineered woods with bamboo backing that are supposedly much hardier and just as efficient with radiant floor heating. Does anyone have experience with bamboo-backed engineered woods?
Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 4:41 PM
Dunno. The only backings I'm aware of for engineered flooring are plywood and high density fiberboard. This is what gives it its selling points for stability, which is why it's recommended for radiant heating, basement and damp room applications.
If I didn't have big dogs my engineered floors would be in a lot better shape. But even hard drops will leave a dent. For instance, I accidentally dropped a hammer on the floor and it left a depression. That might sound unremarkable except it was less than a one foot drop. Unlike a solid hardwood floor where you can occasionally fix a dent with a damp towel and a steam iron, this won't work on an engineered floor.
Another problem I had with the floor (and this may be peculiar to Mannington) was something that happened to the finish. I have a hard plastic mat under my office chair. That's saved the floor from dents but it appears that some liquid got under it -- possibly Diet Pepsi from a poorly cleaned up spill. It attacked the finish leaving it dull and rough.
All in all, if I had it to do over again I'd go with solid hardwood. No question about it.
Posted by: Steve at July 7, 2008 6:03 PM
I have 3.25" red oak hardwood over hydronic radiant in 2 rooms with no problem. As someone pointed out, the target floor temp is not high - 82 degrees I think. The floor gaps are minimal and less from the temperature than the low humidity. They disappear as the humidity rises.
Here's a link to the Radiant Panel Assoc http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1. Lots of good info poorly arranged. If you search enough you'll find a manual with an entire chapter on different floorings.
Posted by: guest at July 7, 2008 8:47 PM
We used Texas Mesquite over radiant heat. Cant recommend it enough. Very stable & dense so good over radiant heat. Also both beautiful and environmentally friendly. Bought wood from Faifer & Co
Posted by: going4broke at July 7, 2008 9:00 PM
Mesquite... gotta be the best choice for radiant heat. It has the lowest radial AND tangential movement of any wood, hard as a rock, and you can use the scraps for BBQ's. Brilliant !
Posted by: southslope at July 7, 2008 9:58 PM
We are putting in radiant floor heating in a whole brownstone renovation - so 4 entire floors. One floor will be poured concrete, two floors will be engineered wood, and the last floor will be Medex, which I think is some cheap wood composite.
Engineered wood was recommended to us over solid wood because solid wood has a greater tendency to warp or cup over radiant floors. Engineered woods are more durable than has been suggested in some of the posts here. There are engineered woods that use a solid bamboo backing. We are using a product called Exobam by ASI that has a 3.5 mm hardwood wear layer. It's not massive, but it does allow the floor to be refinished 2 or 3 times. Ecotimber also makes a great product. HOWEVER, if you use these engineered woods over radiant floor, you often void the manufacturers warranty. We are aware of this and decided to take the risk anyway. As for installation, I believe that depends on the floor you choose. Our new floor will be nailed, as was our old bamboo floor (by the way, all bamboo flooring is "engineered").
Yes, we used bamboo flooring in our last renovation (I am a glutton for punishment) and we were very dissatisfied. Quality of bamboo varies dramatically, and our floor was easily dented and marred.
Good luck and may your home be toasty warm.
Posted by: beatlife at July 7, 2008 10:34 PM
Since you've already had the same negative experience I've had with engineered flooring I'm curious why you think engineered floors are more durable than you've already found they aren't and why doing it again will result in a different outcome.
I hope you've personally tested a sample of this flooring. My Mannington flooring came with high recommendations from several dealers as well.
Posted by: Steve at July 8, 2008 1:48 AM
Steve,
I looked on the Mannington website. Is your flooring the "Hardwood" product, or the "Laminate?" It sounds like you are describing the laminate, which has an ultrathin top layer and I don't think is technically the same as the engineered woods I am describing. If you do have the Hardwood, then I am as puzzled as you are as to why it is so prone to denting and divets, unless you choose a particularly soft wood.
My negative experience with engineered floor has to do with a bamboo top layer. Hopefully, by going with a harder wood as the wear layer we can avoid the issues we had with the 100% bamboo.
Posted by: beatlife at July 8, 2008 9:53 AM
Beatlife: my reply is sitting in the mods' approval queue, probably because it's got links in it.
Posted by: Steve at July 8, 2008 1:09 PM
We have used hardwood floors over radiant heat installed with warmboard and were recommended to use quarter sawn cut hardwood floors and have not had a problem with the flooring. The heating is great and the 3" red oak quarter sawn hardwood floor looks great and has held up over the past couple of years. Premium flooring on 3rd avenue was where we did our research and we are fine with the recommendations.
Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 8:52 AM
As pointed out above, the problem with hardwood on radiant is one of efficiency as much as cupping and warping. Just to keep in mind, with these rising energy prices and all...
Steve, I am surprised by your experience. We put in an "attractively priced" maple-over-hardwood-and-ply engineered floor and it has aged well, even though we abuse it and have a dog. One medium sized dog, but with plenty of pep. And fingernails. Who runs laps.
Perhaps our standards for a good looking floor are different? But the first year has passed, and the finish is still intact and there are scratches but nothing too surprising. No dents.
Posted by: guest at July 9, 2008 7:25 PM
Mr. Bamboo, Inc. is to introduce the high-traffic, the FIRST 100% solid strand woven bamboo floating click floor called BamLoc™, they are 100 percent harder than red oak and 18 percent harder than hard maple. BamLoc™ strand floating in natural and coffee. For longevity and exceptional wear, BamLoc™ includes six coats of ceramic sealer finish that is water-based, solvent-free and non-off gassing. The BamLoc™ boards are wider and come with three random lengths, which make it easy to install on any type of subfloor and reduced installation costs. BamLoc™ is 9/16” solid bamboo and is competitively priced at $6.50 per square foot.
As you can imagine in this day of everyone and everything going green, there is a proliferation of bamboo flooring products. Please do not be fooled, not all bamboo is the same. For homes with pets, children and lots of activity, Mr. Bamboo advises to stay away from the traditional bamboo flooring. Additionally, do not be misled with bamboo veneer products. They do not have the same properties as solid bamboo flooring. Mr. Bamboo offers only solid bamboo flooring – BamStrand™ for nail or glue down applications and the floating, clickable flooring for suspended floors – BamLoc™ .
Mr. Bamboo Team
55 Kelly St,
Elk Grove, IL 60007
Tel: 847-640-7316 or 888-672-2628
Fax: 847-952-8471
www.mrbambooflooring.com
Posted by: sw at July 10, 2008 2:27 PM
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