Solar Panels

I think they have a while to go before they become efficient. solar cell technology is improving quickly. I would wait till their efficiency is double the best cells available today.

Posted by: guest at June 11, 2008 10:14 AM

I got solar panels for electricity. I used to pay something like $150 a month for electricity. Now I pay $49 a month on avg (not taking this heat wave in to account.)
Should pay off in 8-10 years with current electric prices. But I'm sure it will be sooner since electricity prices will go up and up.

Posted by: guest at June 11, 2008 4:44 PM

Okay, let's get on the stick, Everyone!

PLEASE, certainly don't tell people that "NYC is so far north that it doesn't have much of a solar window"...this is ludicrous. NYC is on the same latitude, in fact further south than places where oranges are grown in other parts of the world. No one would say that Rome, Madrid, Istanbul are so far north or lack sunshine.

IN FACT, most of Florida is south of Cairo, Egypt. Washington, DC and Kansas City are on line with the sunny regions of Spain and Siciliy. North Carolina is in line with Algiers and Tunis.

I write all this trying to refocus the misconception that we live in a solar scarce region.

Germany, the SOUTHERN border of which is on line with the State of Maine and most of which is in line with Newfoundland and Labrador is a major country supporting and benefiting from PV. PLUS, Germany has less insolation than the Northeast of the US.

Also, to the first entry above: PLEASE, don't go around telling people solar is not "efficient". That does not mean anything in context. Is a non-sustainable natural gas-fired electric plant in NYC "efficient"...yeah, maybe the process pulls more of the potential energy out of the chemical bonds BUT, it is not an "efficient" method in the long run.

Yes, when calculated, PV panels are 13% and a bit higher when calculated for efficiency in converting sunlight to electricity. This number may not doubled any time soon.

Amorphous silicon materials are significantly cheaper but less efficient. Because of their nature, at their lower efficiency, they offer great possibilities since larger areas can be covered more easily (peel'n'stick on roofs) and they perform better without direct hard sunlight on them. They can generate more electricity early and late in the solar day and also on less sunny days.

Most panels are guaranteed 20 to 25 years. They will improve the resale of your home. They will continue to feed juice into the system for many years and specifically at the times of day and year when ConEd is experiencing the highest load demands. Neighborhoods such as parts of Prospect Heights that now experience brown outs on high demand days might not have any brown outs if various houses were feeding power into the local grid at the sunniest and hottest times of day.

Depending on your usage, you can significantly cut your energy bill. You can also monitor your use so if your meter is "running backwards" (when you are sending energy to the grid), you can decide to run electrical equipment or heat water in an electric heater. This can make sense when you're getting close to the end of the Net Metering cycle and will lose out on the extra energy you have given to the grid.

In NYS, the electric company will not pay you if you produce more than you use (as you might in California)—you will simply reduce your draw on the system by the amount you produce. Theoretically, you can manage to produce the amount you use over the span of the entire year. There are lots of people with small houses in the Northeast who manage to do this, basically break even on a yearly basis so they pay $0 to the electric company. That is an investment that gives back over a long haul. As the cost of electricity rises over the next twenty years faster than “normal” inflation and faster than the average rate of return on an investment, the investment in PV panels may turn out to be a terrific plus to your home, your pocketbook and the pocketbook of whomever you sell the house to some day.

NYS has some GREAT incentives to get solar PV going.

For NYS's incentives go to:
powernaturally.org/WhereCanIFind.asp
and
powernaturally.org/Programs/Solar/incentives.asp

For an article on Photovoltaic go to:
greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/Photovoltaic.html

One note: Yes, wind is more cost effective than solar right now. The cost per watt is approximately 4 or 5 (for solar) to 1 (for wind) but putting up effective wind turbines in residential NYC has its limits.

Posted by: guest at June 11, 2008 7:32 PM

there are plenty of people who power by solar in New York and north of New York. it's not a bad idea.

but i would also say that solar hot water is more cost effective and more efficient than solar electric. you will make your investment back quicker.

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 12:52 AM

What are companies around the area that do a good job with solar installation on brownstones? I am going to be renovating and seriously want to look into putting panels on the roof.

Also, has anyone tried to put both panels for electric as well as a hot water system (both)?

Finally, anyone in the brooklyn neighborhood(s) actually taken a plunge and put in a geothermal system? Those sound like a ridiculous amount of work and mess for installation (not even sure how equipment is placed into the back yard to do the work drilling down).

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 7:30 AM

Geothermal is actually rather expensive for the watt derived. FG has a home renovated by an architect who put in geothermal. I think a well was sunk in front of the house. Do some searching on google and you'll probably find him. The house was done rather mod (i.e. International Style)before the craze had really hit heavy.

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 10:15 AM

I have what is probably a dumb question. I am buying an older home that has only 150 amps, which was deemed insufficient by my inspector given the size of the house. I was told that I need 200 amps run to the house from the street. If I was to instead install a solar system to generate that incremental electricity, would that get me to the 200 amps I need? Or am I confused?

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 10:54 AM

How much does a solar installation typically cost up front, and roughly how much of that initial cost do you get back in rebates?

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 10:55 AM

No re: the amp issue. A solar installation will be hooked into the grid with an inverter. Just because you have 150 Amps coming in does not mean you cannot survive the 21 Century. So, depending on usuage, you might be able to stay with the 150 Amps.
The solar array will feed into the system when it is generating electricity. Your installation indoors will convert the DC to AC and it will be will be tuned to the phase of the grid before it is feed through your meter back out. Your (new) meter will run backwards if you are using less than what the PV system is generating at a given moment.

Please take note: if you are producing energy at the your own peak need times, then, YES, you may effectively negate your need to add 50 Amps incoming service.

The cost can be fairly steep for a PV installation. Depends on the number of panels you get. You can start small and add more later. A roof in Brooklyn on a townhouse could add up to $40K but then you can get a hefty abatement. NYS has great incentives in place. I included the websites above in an earlier post.

FortGreeneGardener

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 1:12 PM

Check out the Neighborhood Energy Network on Google. It is a local group that has Bklyn conference yearly. Come to the summer event (on a weekend) for presentations and to meet people who can answer your questions and get you started.

FGG

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 1:24 PM

Sorry, not "on Google" but "through a Google search".

FGG

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 1:32 PM

Oh, yes, and a good website for incentives:

http://www.dsireusa.org/

Some of us don't live full time in NYC so you might want to check out CT, NJ, PA, MA and RI (and even NH, VT and NE) incentives as well which you can access on the website's map.

Go sustainable.

And remember, the cheapest, most efficient and most cost effective way towards sustainability is by reducing your use. This can be done by simply turning off unneeded lights, using powerstrips to turn off microwave ovens, computers, and any equipment that has and LED standby light or a transformer, getting a highly insulated fridge, making use of the sun and breezes, flushing less, low-flow spigots and showerheads, wearing warm clothes inside in the winter and turning down the furnace or closing radiator valves, window fans and ceiling fans...and as they say "insulate-insulate-insulate"!

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 2:37 PM

blah, blah, blah.

Until this solar stuff is less than a 3-year payback, please STFU.

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 3:11 PM

Uh...3-year payback? Does your burner and rising heating fuel or natural gas prices have ANY payback whatsoever? Come on! Get a grip.

PV panel systems can be give you 20 years or more of worry free power and up the sale price of your property. THAT is the payback.

Now...if you've paid too much for your brownstone...maybe when you go to sell it next year it'll go for less...at that point maybe having solar will help at least get your the house to "move" on the market.

Whatever. Do it or don't. Over not too many years you'll be paid back and this breakeven point will get much nearer as rates and fuel costs skyrocket. After that it'll be nearly free power AND when you sell you absolutely will collect on the investment.

Also, you could go with a masonry heater/stove in the house so you can have slow heat and heat a ton of hot water for later use. A properly constructed masonry stove's firebox burns much hotter than a cast iron stove (Vermont Casting for example) thus gasifying more completely (less particulate and more energy drawn out). Luckily there are currently wood sources both within and not far from NYC. You can also use straw, brush and small branches not to mention newsprint. You can also cook in one if you have an oven set in above the firebox.

Masonry stoves are definitely more visible to buyers at your open house than PV panels up on the roof. There are some great ways to integrate one into your home and designs that can be very appealing. Heat…hot water…cooking…not bad!

Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 7:04 PM

You're not likely to catch much of anything wind-wise with a cylindrical turbine on a Brooklyn roof.

Here is a mini-lowdown on vertical turbines:
http://www.homepower.com/article/?file=HP124_pg12_ATE_4

The wind on the roof is not sufficient too turbulent to run a successful turbine. You might put in a tiny novelty one (not much more than a garden windmill but that's it. Yes, the thing will spin, but it'll amount to not much more than a novelty that gives you enough juice to light an LED or two...maybe a garden light rigged to a small rotor with soft fins...? If you have a roof deck, maybe it'd work for that.

Because of clearance issues, codes, etc., etc., etc., you're not likely to get any approval for a wind-facing or vertical turbine unless you're putting one in the beach for a children's museum or somesuch...not in a residential nabe.

I believe it is now closed, but there was a solar demo hut with wind turbine in Manhattan...why do I think it's closed...? Anyway, about 3 or 4 years ago it was around (lower Manhattan).

We have decent wind resources in NYC, esp. at water's edge and more so off-shore...not as good as the East End of L.I. but okay.

For a turbine to work well, it really should be at least 500 feet from the next tallest/highest feature (say a tree or big building) and the bottom tip of the rotor blade's sweep/circumference should be at least 30 ft above that next tallest object.

Check out this article at HomePower Mag's website:
http://www.homepower.com/view/?file=HP110_pg10_Woofenden

It gives a good overview.

There is some work going on working turbines into building design as part of the structure but this is just barely icing on the cake in terms of providing any net energy return. They look cool though.

The best bet for BKLYN is to put Solar DHW (domestic hot water) on the roof. There are also flat solar panels that circulate air when the temperature reaches a certain point. They pull air from the room they serve, heat it over the black anodized aluminum and send that air back into the room. They can also pull in outdoor air instead of using indoor air. They can be wall or roof mounted. The circulating fans can run on a small incorporated PV unit. Hot water and hot air panels will save you on the use of natural gas or oil (or electric if you use it for HW and heating). The heat you gain during the heating season will offset your use of other energy sources.

For electricity, you'll probably have to go with PV for now. Sorry, I’m nixing the wind idea for your Brooklyn home.

You can also generate electricity on all sorts of stationary human-powered machines (bikes, treadmills) but often the most efficient (though very "off grid) use of that physical energy is captured by hooking the bike up to a machine that actually needs the spinning like a washing machine.

Habana Outpost in FG uses PV for its electricity (their claim to fame/tagline) and has a bike with a blender attachment for drinks. Amusing.

Certain bio-fired furnaces and masonry stoves can create enough concentrated heat to power a steam generator either heating water directly or through an vegetable oil loop that heats the water away from the stove/furnace. It may not be highly "efficient" and may need a lot of maintenance, but the ol' steam engine idea is still possible. Steam engines started this swing we're in with Global Warming. Wood, first and then wood and coal were the fuels depending on availability...and apparently mummies were destroyed in Egypt to fuel trains... the sad history of the industrial age...

But anyway, in tree and straw-rich environments...or anywhere there is burnable biomass (dried dung, crop chaff, dried leaves), it is possible to power a steam turbine easily…

I don’t know if this would be allowable in residential Bklyn…h’mmmm. I'd love to be able to set something up but I think it won't happen in our brownstone! ;-)

How to use much less electricity:
--Change out to very energy efficient appliance such as a Sunfrost fridge.
--If you have a washer in your home, there's an American-made horizontal-axis clothes washer that opens at the top which uses even less water than the heavily advertised front-access washers (sorry, can’t remember the name off hand but do a search and you’ll find it. The washer I’m writing about has the added benefit of not having door seal problems.
--Dry laundry as much as possible without using a drier.
--Do not use a dishwasher if you have one.
--Make sure all lights are LED or compact fluorescent.
--Put any "necessary" appliances such as microwave ovens, TVs, computers on a circuit with a wall switch or plug them into powerstrips you can turn off when they are not being used.

When you've done all this, you might truly be able to manage on PV alone.

I know someone who lives off grid who has a stationary bike that helps charge batteries when they get too low in winter.

Have fun!

FGG

Posted by: guest at June 13, 2008 6:50 PM

I see a lot of info here, but none of its helped me so far... here's my question...

I'm not a home owner, I'm a renter, I have a roof, the flat silver tar variety, in midtown. Its pretty big, maybe 30' x 80'. I have noticed that walking around up there has been wearing down the tar. rather than having the unpleasant and expensive retarring done, I was thinking perhaps I could install a layer of solar paneling, like tile or perhaps like a shade porch roof kinda thing. since its too sunny to go up there in the day (the heat that radiates off the silver tar won't even allow a plant to live up there).

I would love to have whatever repairs i do to the roof be eco friendly. Though I don't expect to get too much electricity out of it i think every bit counts. So I'm wondering if there are any options out there for me, and how much it might cost. and whether i could move this panel situation with me to another building eventually when i move...

does anyone know if this idea is possible to pull off and how expensive it'd be?

Posted by: guest at June 18, 2008 3:51 PM