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June 12, 2008
Per Square Foot Cost for a Brownstone
Interested in hearing from architects and owners what the cost per square foot would be to gut renovate 4 out of 5 floors of a brownstone (parlor and the 3 add'l floors up) and keep the garden as a rental which we would not touch with the exception of upgrading plumbing and/or electric. We expect a high middle finish and would will install an elevator, central air. We will probably keep the radiator heat. The only existing detail we would keep would be the stairs which would have to be fixed somewhat. Soup to nuts including all fees, what would be a reasonable estimate on a square foot basis to do such a renovation. The amount of square footage to renovate is approx 5000 ft.
Comments
$1,424,325.57
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 12, 2008 10:15 PM
sounds expensive since it seems the cost would be about $71MM to renovate. I have never seen a quote that high so this sounds a bit off!!
Posted by: ciw at June 12, 2008 10:20 PM
We are doing just that, except we are doing a more extensive renovation to the ground floor than what you describe. We also have 5,000 sq. feet, and are putting in central air, elevator, 6 bathrooms, new boiler, etc. I would say that smokychimp has pretty much nailed it. I expect to end up pretty close to that exact figure, although I am not sure it will cover redoing the backyard, too.
Posted by: guest at June 12, 2008 10:37 PM
Interesting, I am getting some quotes well over $2MM implying $450 a sq/ft. Basically, the person we were highly considering just raised his price and claims we cannot possibly renovate our brownstone for less than $450 a sq ft. Do you mind sharing your bldg location and your architect/contractor. I am trying to get a reality check.
Posted by: ciw at June 12, 2008 10:50 PM
1.5MM sounds like a very reasonable starting point.
Posted by: guest at June 13, 2008 8:13 AM
Gut renovations are such fun, don't you think?
smokeychimp may be just a little off. I spent over$11M on my 5 story frame house in the South Slope (see Arch Digest May '04 issue). Will be glad to send you a Xcel spreadsheet of the details.
Btw, I think you should expand into the whole house. 5000 sq ft. is quite small for the level of ostentation you're aspiring too. And having bitter tenants downstairs is bad karma.
Posted by: cmu at June 13, 2008 8:38 AM
Interior Renovation costs range from $50 per square foot to $100 per square foot. It depends on the finishes.
Posted by: Perrone at June 13, 2008 11:16 AM
best laugh I've had all day...
since you're ripping out all the detail, why keep the stairs? Perhaps you can get jet packs to take you from floor to floor when the elevator is on the fritz...
Posted by: guest at June 13, 2008 11:34 AM
Our renovation of just two floors and cellar is looking like it will come out to about 150 sq ft. Of course, there will not be an elevator...which I would imagine is pretty pricey :-)
Posted by: Colonel at June 13, 2008 12:25 PM
I think the contractors may be basing their prices on how much they think you can pay...
Sure, high end finishes cost more, but $450/sf? Ok everyone, take out an imaginary record album and now put a price tag of $450 on it.
I think it's the contractors who need a reality check, but maybe they'll get it. I got a middle high-end kitchen for about $100/sf (a little less), would expect to pay about the same for bath, but couldn't even imagine approaching $450 even if all the mechanicals needed updating.
Posted by: guest at June 13, 2008 4:30 PM
Ooops what I meant was total, that is a bit off, yes.
The price I mention was a total (I used a previous project and multiplied the sf for yours) and facetious -- you cannot know with any accuracy what the cost will be without a lot more groundwork and a lot more specifics about your choices. For example an elevator can change the price +/-.25 million depending on whether it's cast in place vs masonry, hydraulic or roped, how much dewatering is required for its pit, etc. so every single choice makes an impact on the final cost.
What will answer the question far more accurately is create an outline specification of finishes for each room, outline for every system (what type of a/c, how many zones, extent of new electrical work) and then take it to an architect or directly to a contractor and get their opinion. Most will be perfectly willing to give you their best answer if you've done that little bit of homework.
Posted by: Smokychimp at June 13, 2008 4:51 PM
4:30, right...obviously OP has money to burn...after all, how many elevators do you see in residential brownstones? Which makes me wonder why on earth he would seek advice from the proles.
Posted by: cmu at June 13, 2008 5:15 PM
CMU-why so rude and such venom? I never quite get why people respond when they have nothing to contribute in a positive way. This board is about getting information on renovations and not an editorial on why people are spending money on renovations. Anyone doing a gut reno on a brownstone is going to spend at least $1MM and there are plenty of people on this board who are gut renovating brownstones. OP does not have money to burn and yes when the contractor ups the price of the job by oh 50% from our original conversations, yes you question the price and validity.
Thanks to those who responded to my original question. Your comments were helpful and now leads me to the path where I will need to review other proposals received more earnestly.
Posted by: ciw at June 13, 2008 10:39 PM
To CIW-
Sometimes those who respond on the Forum think they're guests on talk radio. As someone who's done enough renovation to know, it would be near impossible to really get an accurate estimate of price per square foot without a good deal of information or at least a well fleshed out scope of work. It does sound to me like $450/sq.ft is high. And well, envy apparently is alive and well, but forget about the sticks and stones cause a good outcome will be reward enough.
I can recommend an excellent contractor who I've worked with on several properties. I had an interior designer who I worked with as well. It is natural to ask questions when undertaking a project that is big and there's nothing wrong with that. But better to create a relationship with professionals who you can trust who can use a range of talents and resources to assist you.
if you'd like more info feel free to email me
Jasperrose11@aol.com
Posted by: guest at June 14, 2008 4:18 PM
Hi, I am 10:37. Our house is in Chelsea, and we had a total of 4 bids for the work. Two were closer to 1.7, and we chose a contractor who came in loser, specifically because we did our homework and priced the elevator, a/c, kitchen cabinets and appliances, tile, fixtures all ourselves and bought them ourselves after negotiated for discounts in every possible way. Buying and installing the elevator probably cost around $125,000. But, we did it because we believe it added a great deal of value to a 5 story house. We are doing very nice finishes, but nothing extraordinary. Marvin windows were a big expense, and the plumbing was probably $100,000, as was the electric. I recommend our contractors, with some reservations. You can email me at andrecom@earthlink.net. Also, as for the vitriol on this blog, come on, owning a brownstone is a luxury by any measure. Grow-up and if you can't bother to be helpful, shut-up.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 10:07 AM
Oops, thats lower, not loser.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 11:37 AM
Quest 10:07am & Quest 4:18pm. Thanks a lot. You will be hearing from me shortly. Need to discuss with my spouse. The numbers you quote was closer to the budget I had in mind. Quest 10:07am, I definitely will want to understand the ways to cut costs like buying your own materials and learning from your experience. Agree with the elevator, we do not need it but have been told by all the brokers that it enhances the value of your property by more than the actual cost of putting it in.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:54 PM
Not that you asked...but if you don't need an elevator I don't think you should put in just becasue a broker advises it. A renovation is like buying art, you should buy what you like not what someone else likes. Also, the realtor thinks the elevator adds value but to whom? Old people, who might want an elevator, are unlikely to by a renovated b'stone. Ditto a handicap person. I think an elevator is one of these trendy blips, like jacuzzis in in the bathtub you use once a year. Also, they seem to break a lot. Imagine spending a night in an elevator. Nightmare.
Posted by: Cobblekrill at June 17, 2008 10:05 AM
I have to disagree with 10:05
I firmly believe that when you buy a brownstone as an investment, which we did, although we also intend to make it our home for 6 years while our sons are teenagers, you ought to renovate with an eye towards maximizing your profit if and when you do sell. As it turns out, it was not that difficult or expensive to put in an elevator,(and, most important, it did not take away any critical space from other features of the house) and although I personally am not an elevator person, the convenience is hard to argue with. You can send up and down laundry, suitcases, boxes for storage, etc. It is no fun to go up and down five stories all day. And, when my mother visits, she can take the elevator directly to the guest room. So, I would say if you can make the numbers work, it is an excellent way to maximize value. My house is in Manhattan, and I am not at all ashamed to admit that when I sell it I intend to sell it to someone a whole lot richer and grander than I am. That person is going to want an elevator.
Posted by: at June 17, 2008 5:01 PM
Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 5:02 PM
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