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June 15, 2008
Legal disclosure responsibilities for a seller
Hello, hoping I could get some advice on the legal responsibilities of a seller. Two weeks ago I closed on a 98 year old two family townhouse in Greenpoint. I returned home yesterday, after the heavy rain to find about three inches of water on the basement floor. I find it very hard to believe that this is the first time this type of flooding has occurred. Is it the seller responsible for disclosing this to me? What is my best recourse? Do I contact the seller directly to try and work something out amicably? Do I contact the seller's attorney, or should I just contact my own attorney and file suit? And advice would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
Since 2002, it's NY state law that a seller provide a Property Condition Disclosure Statement to potential buyers. This applies to one to four family homes whether FSBO or through a broker.
Posted by: Steve at June 15, 2008 5:05 PM
Here's a link to the standard form PCD:
http://www.fiftystatesfsbo.com/PCD/NewYorkPCD.pdf
Posted by: Steve at June 15, 2008 5:09 PM
Steve thanks for the help, but wouldn't this form be a little after the fact? I have all ready closed on the property and am occupying it.
Posted by: deepBTUz at June 15, 2008 5:25 PM
Wrong.
New York State is a caveat emptor state. The seller is not required to tell you anything that you don't ask about specifically.
A lot of houses take in water during particularly bad storms. Nobody I know didn't have to address at least some issues with the basement taking in water. You're in a flood zone in Greenpoint. This is going to happen.
Posted by: guest at June 15, 2008 5:46 PM
This is where you talk to your lawyer. There's a fine ($500) for a seller failing to provide a PCD before closing but I don't know what other remedies are available to you.
Posted by: Steve at June 15, 2008 6:00 PM
Steve what is a PCD?
Posted by: deepBTUz at June 15, 2008 6:21 PM
To make it easy, here's what's acurate from the posts above--all in one place:
When you bought the place, the seller had the option to give you either the PCD (property condition disclosure statement) or $500. No seller in his right mind would give you the PCD, they will always opt for the $500--as will you when it's time to sell.
Now, I'm 100% confident in what I've said above. What I THINK is also true is what 5:46 says. It's basically too late. Maybe worth a discussion with your attorney, but I think it's buyer beware.
Finally, I also agree again with 5:46. Water in basements isn't unusual, especially after this crazy rain. Try not to get too worked up about it.
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at June 15, 2008 8:48 PM
I believe what curiositykilledthecat said is true. At least that's exactly what my attorney told me when I bought my house. I got the $500 "discount", and apparently this is what most sellers decide to do. And I would do the same thing if I was selling.
I think there could be some exceptional situations in which you would still have some recourse. Like if the house collapsed two weeks after closing due to a structural issue known to the seller. I don't think the seller would get away with that. But water in the basement after a heavy rain storm is not at all unusual in Brooklyn houses.
Posted by: Ibis at June 15, 2008 10:24 PM
By the same token, no buyer in his right mind would purchase a property from a seller who refused to sign a PCD. Even though I bought this place before 2002, my attorney insisted on a notarized disclosure statement from the seller.
The seller has the option to enter "UNKN" in most of the PCD's defect categories if he honestly doesn't know, for instance, if there's a foundation problem. So the only reason for the seller to refuse to sign a PCD is because he DOES know there's a defect he doesn't want the buyer to know about.
Posted by: Steve at June 15, 2008 10:50 PM
And where was your pre-sale inspection engineer in all of this? There should have been signs of earlier flooding you and/or him could pick up.
I'd ask that question if I were the seller.
Posted by: denton at June 15, 2008 10:54 PM
Thank you all for your help. I am a first time homeowner and honestly I find my ignorance a little embarrassing. I did receive a $500 check at closing which I accepted. My lawyer did not really do an adequate job of explaining what exactly I was accepting. I am no fool. I know that there will inherently be issues with a 100 year old house. I understand that more than likely you can expect some leakage in basements, especially during periods of extreme storms. But what is normal? In my case, this was not a small amount of water. I would estimate it in the range of 30 gallons. Is that normal or exceptional in terms of degree? I did hire an independent inspector before I entered into contract. He seemed to be very knowledgeable and competent, and I would have classified the experience as positive. He however, found no evidence, or suggested that there could be, this amount of leakage. If this leakage is in fact an accepted inevitability, how do you live with it? I rent the three bedroom on the second floor, so the finished basement makes up a sizable portion of my living space. I know their is a separate thread on how exactly to fix these leaks, but how expensive is it? I am a furniture collector who plans to put several very expensive pieces in the space. Would I be better off just having the furniture insured?
Posted by: deepBTUz at June 15, 2008 11:43 PM
I don't think you mean 30 gallons, that's a drip, not a flood...maybe 300 gallons?
Search in archives here for several posts on this subject. You have to find the source of the water, walls/foundation/etc. There are remedies ranging from a foundation drain (lots of thousands), sump pump, unclogging a drain, waterproofing etc.
Talk to a good waterproofing contractor.
If there's enough ceiling height a false floor with a waterproof membrane under and a sump pump may be the cheapest solution. Won't take care of dampness, though, which may affect the furniture.
Posted by: cmu at June 16, 2008 8:42 AM
Your ignorance isn't a little embarrassing at all. It's part of the learning process!
One thing though - it might have nothing to do with waterproofing. It could be a drainage issue. Still solvable. Heavy rain water came into my finished basement through a poorly set-up (and hidden) drain. Once found, easy to solve.
I used Sessa Plumbing after a bunch smaller firms came through with either no clue or bad advice. Contractor told me i was "definitely water seeping in from my (then) unfinished back yard" and that I needed to put in a patio. Which I did. And of course it didn't make a bit of difference. Looks nice tho.
One plumber told me there was nothing that could be done and charged me $95 for the service call. And like an idiot I paid it.
That was my learning experience ;-)
Posted by: Johnny at June 16, 2008 9:52 AM
Honestly this is very normal. I was pretty angry at our sellers after this happened to us, but drainage in Brooklyn is a real problem. Flat brownstone roofs and wide cement expanses create an amazing amount of runoff.
Our back basement takes in water during massive early summer storms like we're having these weeks. Go down there when it starts raining a lot and watch what happens. This will help you pinpoint if it's seepage, runoff, a slow drain or whatever.
We learned that the half of our backyard that was paved with cement was mostly pitched towards a drain near the house that can't keep up with the water. To solve it we have begun removing the cement where we can, and plan on pitching the rest away from the house toward our newly planted lawn and covered french drain. Removing cement helped. Not sure about the rest. If nothing else works, we're planning on looking into a sump pump.
Good luck.
Posted by: corolla at June 16, 2008 11:09 AM
An engineer/home inspector only has a couple of hours to find problems that the PO may have known about for 20 or 30 years. When the house is opened for buyer inspection you have to assume that some serious issues are going to be intentionally obscured. For instance, a roof leak can be masked with a coat of primer and paint and old termite damage in the floor can be hidden with a discretely placed rug. Both were done here and were exposed by that disclosure statement. I got credits for both at closing.
I have to disagree with the comment that a seller would be nuts to sign a PCD. Whether it's caveat emptor or not, that isn't going to stop a pissed off buyer from suing a seller who dumped him with an expensive problem. If a seller knows the house is in good shape, that PCD will go a long way towards avoiding expensive litigation over something he didn't know about. Even if there ARE problems it gets it on the record that the buyer knew about them before closing.
Posted by: Steve at June 16, 2008 11:33 AM
Check your roof gutters and make sure the runoff is going down into the storm sewer not dumping into the back of the house.
Make sure the drywell drain in the cement in back is not covered up with leaves or clogged. Sometimes it's as simple as clearing away leaves. Or sometimes some dummy covers the drain with cement at some point.
Check the grade of the cement at the back of the house. If it's not graded correctly get it redone. It should send water away from the house and send the runoff into a drywell drain.
Check the drywell right outside the back door under the hatch. If it's shallow and useless and all full of mud (most are) and if the hatch is old or cement around it is letting in water, then water will come in under your door. We plumbed that drain to put the water into the sewer, instead of leaving it as a drywell. Also we took steps to reduce water entering the hatch.
Good luck! 30 gallons is not bad at all. I bet you just have a small problem with one of the things I mentioned, and it won't be a big deal to fix.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 2:04 PM
I think you need to think creatively. Maybe you should consider turning the basement into a swimming pool?
Posted by: Brooklynnative at June 16, 2008 2:31 PM
Check your storm drains, check your gutters, look into a sump pump and keep in mind that basements flood in NYC. It happens. We got a lot of rain this weekend and if the storm drains at your curb are backed up that can cause storm water (and raw sewage ... are you sure it was just water?) to backup into a basement through the storm drains.
All of that said, I would not count on keeping fine furniture underground. There will be more wild storms, maybe not every weekend, but every few years there is a rainstorm that shuts the subway down for a day.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 3:52 PM
You stated that your inspector didn't see evidence of a problem. Might this be the first time that this happened, so the seller did not have this problem which is why the engineer did not pick it up? Was the inspector incompetent? You have already taken the $500 so it is pretty much your problem now.
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 6:03 PM
I lost many nights of sleep and a few months off of my life due to the stress of worrying about water in the basement(mostly about it flooding the boiler or washer dryer). It truly makes you feel like you are not maintaining this valuable investment. But,...after 10 years of living at the bottom of the slope you start to realize that it basically is a fact of life (especially if the adjacent basements recieve signifigant water) and it does dry up pretty quickly. Good Luck!
Posted by: guest at June 16, 2008 9:01 PM
Hi, I am one of your neighbors, i read your post and have left you my contact 411 in your mailbox.
Posted by: ytnyc2 at June 16, 2008 10:47 PM
ytnyc2, you are seriously one of my neighbors? Like a neighbor in terms of greenpoint, or a neighbor neighbor?
Posted by: deepBTUz at June 17, 2008 12:20 AM
6:03 PM, solid point. I agree. I do not think the inspector was incompetent. Actually, found him through recommendations from this forum. Might have to chalk this one up to extremity. I have lived in Greenpoint for 10 years, and can not really recall a storm of the magnitude of the one on Saturday. There was a lot of water period....
Posted by: deepBTUz at June 17, 2008 12:25 AM
You might have a claim against the seller if the seller made a specific representation regarding water in the basement or drainage. It is not uncommon for lawyers to put a representation into their contracts stating that the roof is free of leaks or something of that nature. So, first see what representations the seller made.
Following that same idea - I have never known a seller to give a PCD. They always give a $500 credit to a buyer. A seller never wants to make any representations about the condition of the house for exactly this reason. They tell you to get an inspection.
You might have a claim against your home inspector. But most of their contracts limit their liability to whatever you paid them. So, maybe you could recover a few hundred dollars from the home inspector if he failed to properly inspect the home and blatantly missed evidence of water damage in the basement.
Sorry - none of its good news. Lesson to be learned - don't make any representations when you sell, and don't sign a PCD.
Posted by: guest at June 17, 2008 9:16 PM
This sounds alot like a house I had unsigned contracts on and was trying to inspect. Three cancellations from the sellers realators (Mario & Anthony). And now I recall there was rain on those days. Also, possibly your inspector, because my contract was for no tenants, they sold to you. I looked for evidence of water. Couldn't find any. Sorry. We were bummed to have lost that house...if it is the one on Beadel.
Posted by: guest at June 18, 2008 6:49 PM
Yes I am one of your neighbors. I put my contact info in your mailbox on a piece of paper but you have not called me. I've also tried to ring your doorbell but I can't seem to catch you. I'll leave another note. What did you think of Mario and you too 6:49? I was thinking of using him.
Posted by: guest at June 19, 2008 8:17 PM
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