Forum
« Free metal radiator covers Welding Estimate »
May 30, 2008
Makes sense to renovate?
Does it make sense to renovate our kitchen if we need to sell, say when the RE market improves in some years? Right now, the place has not been touched for let's say, 50 years. There are no cabinets or countertops (only shelves), walls are a patchworked mess, appliances are worth only as junk, no proper outlets, ceiling was taken down to the beams, electrical is ancient, floors are old plastic tile, plumbing lines are exposed, etc.
I am making plans to renovate, thinking that in the current state, this kitchen (and adjoining bath, laundry, dining area) would bring down the value of the house, just because it makes the house a fixer-upper (the other floors are in much better shape). It's going to cost an arm and a leg (150K maybe). Is it wise to go to this expense or better to save and sell as is down the road?
Comments
Renovate, renovate, renovate. It doesn't sound like you're selling anytime soon (next 1-2 years), so you will get the use out of the upgrades. In its current state, the kitchen/bath/laundry is only going to get uglier and dingier and depress the value of the house more.
We owned a coop in Brooklyn Heights, which we bought in 1999 knowing we'd need to redo the kitchen, and procrastined and delayed and ended up selling in 2007 with the old kitchen in place. The ONLY negative comments we received from potential buyers while the place was on the market were about the tired state of the kitchen, and I'm convinced that we would have sold much more quickly and for closer to asking price if the kitchen had been redone.
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at May 30, 2008 11:49 AM
Not to play devil's advocate. . .but we had the opposite experience. We renovated a very tired old kitchen in order to sell and the new owners, who took out every original architectural detail of the house, also took out the entire kitchen. It broke our hearts to drive by and see slabs of granite in the dumpster. My husband has now sworn to never renovate a kitchen again!
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 11:58 AM
But Guest 11:58, you did sell, right? If you renovate to sell and you sold, you won. But if you renovate with the sole purpose of selling you can't get too emotionally invested in the job.
For the OP, I was thinking they'd have a few years to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and though they probably don't want to buy the Granite of Their Dreams knowing it won't be theirs for long, they can make some personal choices on colors and cabinets because they will be living with them for awhile.
When the market picks up, I'd rather be in the OP's position with a house that's move-in condition instead of a "needs some TLC" place.
Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at May 30, 2008 12:12 PM
At times I feel so grateful for the people on this forum and their support. This is one such time.
To add: A lot of the improvement is going to be in the infrastructure, and I have heard, that buyers don't care about that. Who cares how much you spent pouring your slab or sistering a beam when they are buying?
Posted by: ohiise at May 30, 2008 12:25 PM
Smart people care MORE about infrastructure.
But my experience in owning in a coop, and comments I see on this board, tell me that there aren't that many smart people in this market. Smart about what counts in a house purchase anyway.
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 12:41 PM
Wow - $150K? That's a fair sized chunk of change. If it really needs that much work, and you definitely plan to sell in two years, (and of course you have the money available), I think I'd consider it. Talk to a real estate agent and try to get a feel for the size of haircut you'd have to take to sell it in the current state its in. Ordinarily, I'd say don't renovate, but if its in such bad shape that its really going to scare away a large portion of potential buyers, and you know you are going to sell, it may be worth it. I'd think it would have to be a $1 mln or more house to make a renovation like that worthwhile. With that many problems though, you might find only the vultures interested....
Posted by: slopenick at May 30, 2008 12:48 PM
Another rationale for going ahead -- you will find contractor's more available for work and negotiable in this market than you will when the market picks up....and it always seems like people stay in their homes longer than they ever expect.
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 1:14 PM
I guess it depends on what timeframe you are envisioning. I can't imagine bothering to go through a renovation if I was planning to move in a little while. Its not just the money - its the aggravation level.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at May 30, 2008 1:48 PM
I guess I'd want to do something if only to make it livable. A few years is a long time to have a wreck for a kitchen. I've found that when I am done with renovations I often think "why didn't I do that earlier?" Reminds me that I need to put some hardware on some doors...
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at May 30, 2008 2:32 PM
It really depends on what sort of buyer you are looking for - one who wants to renovate, or one who wants something done and livable.
I'm with Mrs. Limestone - can't imagine doing it just for resale - it isn't an easy process, even if it is what you do for a living. aggravating as hell.
and, in this market, are you sure you would make more than you put into it? no way to know. Different from doing a quick reno that you know will bring up the price dramatically in a seller's market that is rising.
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:12 PM
don't YOU need a kitchen tho?
I guess I'd do the demo, spend some money to bring the place up to code (upgrade elec, etc), put in Ikea kitchen and a "suite" of appliances (standard GE oven/dw/fridge from lowes can be done for 2K).
It depends too on what this is: a studio? a brownstone?
I'd put some money into it -- there are a lot of people who would run from a house that screams "needs everything".
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 3:25 PM
we gut rennovated a four story brownstone including installing 3 kitchens and four bathrooms for $250K. for the money you are talking about you can get a lot more than a kitchen and some infrastructure. i'd definitely say do the work but you might want to do it on a more careful budget. i don't think very high end kitchens attract buyers more than a clean, simply designed budget option
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 4:44 PM
$150k?? Are they making 24-caret gold Subzeros now? Seriously, you should be able to do a bottom-up kitchen reno for less than half that cost. Mine cost me less than $20k and that included a new 150 s/f kitchen extension. But I built the cabinets and did everything except the extension construction and granite installation.
http://www.brooklynrowhouse.com/house/kitchen
Posted by: Steve at May 30, 2008 7:16 PM
I can give you a direct comp: We bought our current 3 br floor-through in spring 07. It was mostly renovated, save the kitchen (which was much as you describe) and the utility/maid's room. Coincidentally, just after we moved in our new neighbor's job was relocated, and they sold their fully renovated (low- to mid-range kitchen cabs/appliances) IDENTICAL unit for 85K MORE (about 10% premium over our unit) a month later.
We're about to start gutting our kitchen and expect to spend about 30-35K for a mid-range job. So we figure we'll be getting a free $50k out of the deal when we sell.
In short, I'd renovate, but don't go crazy on fixtures/appliances etc. There's a lot of people who want to move right in, so why automatically rule them out as buyers?
Posted by: guest at May 30, 2008 10:01 PM
Why not assume that what you like is what an eventual buyer would like and make your home your own? If it is attractive, it will sell and people often renovate kitchens to their own taste anyway.
Posted by: donatella at May 30, 2008 10:09 PM
Why not assume that what you like is what an eventual buyer would like and make your home your own? If it is attractive, it will sell and people often renovate kitchens to their own taste anyway.
Posted by: donatella at May 30, 2008 10:09 PM
Why not assume that what you like is what an eventual buyer would like and make your home your own? If it is attractive, it will sell and people often renovate kitchens to their own taste anyway.
Posted by: donatella at May 30, 2008 10:09 PM
I find this post confusing -- are you living in the house now and using the kitchen as you describe? It doesn't sound like a usable kitchen. If you plan to live there for 2 or more years, you should definitely do a very inexpensive renovation in order to simply make it a proper usable kitchen.
When we did our brownstone renovation in 2001 I read alot of renovation magazines, and the common wisdom was that you never get your money back in a renovation, but that kitchens were one of the items in which you got a higher % of expense back (maybe 75%). It's only in this heated NYC bubble market that people expect to get their money back plus more when they renovate.
Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 10:27 AM
Thanks all. To answer some of you questions, we live in the house. It's a 3 story brick townhouse. It will be a gut renovation. Whether we sell is not definite, just a possibility, if we need to relocate. We may end up staying here. So based on your comments, I think I will renovate.
Now for the cost:
Apart from the infrastructure (which involves moving drains, lowering the toilet (it sits on a raised slab), pouring a new slab and digging down a bit, replacing the boiler with a high efficiency boiler and moving it to the back in the extension, replacing plumbing lines drains and electric, moving the sink, washer/ dryer hook-ups (there are none), installing a French drain, walls, ceiling, insulation, moving a window, new entry and patio doors and installing IKEA cabinets, stone countertop and mid-range appliances (no Subzero, Viking or Wolf), just GE and Bosch. The area is about 560 sq ft.
We have three estimates and the lowest for the labor not including the slab and French drain(and not fixtures, cabinets and appliances) comes to 90K. The highest is 117K with the slab and French drain, permits, etc. but not any doors or windows. I figured 150K with all the cabinets, appliances, 10% margin, etc. The boiler cost included is 13K. Are these figures too high? That's the impression I get from your comments.
Steve, didn't you do most of the work yourself? 4:44, when did you do your renovation? Where can I get these low figures? Can anyone recommend their contractors? I'm getting estimates from a neighborhood contractor, Metrodesign and AllRenovation.
Thanks again!
Posted by: ohiise at May 31, 2008 11:03 AM
i think the big question should be whether or not you could still make the kitchen nice/liveable with a renovation of a smaller scope. is it a *must* to do all the infrastructure work? if you can leave a similar layout and just replace the kitchen, update the electric/plumbing and add a washer dryer somewhere, you're looking at 35-40k not 150k. how much addtional value comes from moving the windows/entryway, digging down and pouring new slab/etc? that's why your estimates are so much higher than what people are imagining.
Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 12:21 PM
Yeah, I did most of the work myself, including cabinet fabrication. It sounds like your quote involves a lot more than just a kitchen reno so the price looks better, although still a bit high.
A typical kitchen reno isn't brain surgery. Even if you don't do much of the work yourself, it's something you can easily subcontract to a floor/tile installer, plumber and electrician and save yourself 20-30%. The countertop company will do its installation regardless and a cabinet retailer will optionally install them for you too.
Two contractors I can recommend are Steve Mann and Jim Lally (Galway Bay Contracting). I've worked with both here. Both are talented, honest and a fair-priced. Both will take forever to return your calls but once they start the job they're freight trains.
Jim Lally: 917-523-1113
Steve Mann: 917-642-8525
On the high end ($$) there's also John Michaels: 718-449-2700. He did a great job with my neighbor's eclectic kitchen reno. But that was $75k by itself (all inclusive).
Posted by: Steve at May 31, 2008 12:37 PM
One more thing: if you're gonna spend all that money, don't cut corners on the cabinets. Nice cabinets have more "curb appeal" than Viking stoves and wine coolers. A good set of semi-custom cabinets will run about $300-500 linear foot for base cabinets and $75-200 for wall cabinets. A good place to go for kitchen cabinet ideas is The Great Indoors in Woodbridge, NJ.
http://www.thegreatindoors.com
Posted by: Steve at May 31, 2008 12:52 PM
Steve, just checked out the link. Nice job. I am handy, but not quite as handy or I would do it myself too. Btw, I LIKE Ikea cabinets. They're better value than most others. We're not moving doors, just one window so it faces the pass through above the kitchen sink, so we get to see the yard from the kitchen. Doors are just being replaced. But, I like the idea of decreasing the scope of the work.
Posted by: ohiise at May 31, 2008 1:29 PM
Try calling Anthony Riccio. We used him. He is a top kitchen contractor working in both Brooklyn and Manhattan and yet I think he'd give you a much better price on labor than the quotes you got from those Brooklyn places. That just seems high, like you're getting charged some overhead for walking into a storefront place to get a contractor.
Anthony Riccio
Phone: 347.267.1681
adconstr@aol.com
You can find reviews for him on Apartment Therapy. As for cabinets that are better quality than Ikea but still affordable, ask the people at Park Slope Kitchen Gallery at:
233 PROSPECT AVENUE
BROOKLYN, N.Y. 11215
TEL: 718 832-0002
Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 2:18 PM
My husband never renovated the old ugly 80's kitchen the whole decade he had his coop. We did some renovating in the months before we sold it. And when we did, he was sad he hadn't done it sooner! Because he enjoyed the new sink and fixtures and new appliances.
Logic may suggest people would rather install their own kitchen anyway, whenever you do sell, but the reality is an old decrepit kitchen makes them hate a place and not want to buy it. So it's lose-lose situation all around to just do nothing at all with your kitchen. As for buyers not appreciating the work done to the infrastructure -- I totally disagree; brownstone buyers are savvy and do lots of research and they know the value of that work. Just make sure to point out it was done in your listing and in the literature when you sell the place. I'd even have a handout that lists in detail all the updates to mechanicals and infrastructure.
Posted by: guest at May 31, 2008 7:28 PM
I lived with an old kitchen, bathroom and cracked walls for longer than I'd like to admit. I didn't enjoy it and when I thought about possibly selling, I'd say, well, it needs to be renovated first. About 2 years ago I finally renovated kitchen, bathroom and cleaned up the rest. It has made an enormous difference in my life and I regretted not doing it sooner. It's great for living and for entertaining, and if I wanted I could sell tomorrow, but I don't want to.
I had a very good contractor who I'd really recommend. And he didn't charge me what you've been quoted. He's Drew Construction-917-584-7286.
Posted by: guest at June 1, 2008 11:02 PM
My vote is for the renovation of the place,
When you sell and it is not renovated the buyers will nitpick thru their lawyers to lower the price after the contract is signed.
Buyers look for imperfections to get a reduction in price,
It is called negotiating after the fact.. It could be very aggravating to the seller.
The renovation does not have to be luxury..
It could be done for a modest price.
It should be simple and clean.
I prefer the color white for openess and clean look for kitchen and
bathroom. They can always add their own color to personalize.
Posted by: Ysabelle at June 2, 2008 10:33 AM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.