Illegal Washer Dryer

Shut off the water to her apartment.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 12:50 PM

Explain it is a violation of her lease and not permitted. Eviction notices should follow.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:03 PM

Bust a cap in her ads.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:06 PM

Tell her you will be accessing the apartment to remove it. Give her written notice and then when she is not there - Take it. Put it in storage and give her the key. After 1 month, she is on her own to pay for storage or dispose of it.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:06 PM

Have a plumber shut off and seal the water pipe feeding the washer. Maybe even cut the power that is feeding the Washing Machine. Then she can still have it, although it will be useless.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:10 PM

You'd be better off to fix the plumbing, in my opinion, to accomodate it - and get her a pan for under it to control flooding. It'll make your property more valuable. It isn't the washer that causes the backups, it is your plumbing.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:12 PM

1:12 - Didnt you read, this is a rent control unit. How will increasing your water sewer charges and having plumbing expense to accomidate it increase the value of the property. It is rent controlled, he could install viking appliances and furnish it with Italian leather furniture and the property will not be worth $1 more.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 1:18 PM

Really, legally, for a rent control apt, what is the course of action? My RC tenant also does not have my permission to have or use it. How can I make them stop using it, legally? They are protected from eviction over this, but how can I make them stop?

He also did not have my permission to put a satellite dish on my roof, but he did too when I wasn't home!

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:03 PM

You should cut the line to her Direct TV and go in and remove her extra water lines. You can't just install a washing machine without actually doing some renovations with a plumber. She does NOT have the right to do that without a permit. She also must have done electrical work illegally in order to get an appliance outlet installed. Tell her it must be removed because you'll get a violation for illegal work.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:13 PM

As seems clear, your looking at this from a least cost/least effort POV.. hence you dont want a lawyer.

Court in general will take up a lot more of your time and effort even without a lawyer.. and hiring a plumber/electrician will also cost some money (less than lawyer, and less time spent).

There is ZERO/NO way you can get that thing removed without her complaining, as you've stated she does. Thats un-avoidable.

So... if you want to have the thing gone with the minimal effect on your time/money, give her 3+ notices of intent to remove for non-compliance & nuisance/hazard (to the other neighbors), preferably through service, and then as a poster has stated, remove the thing to storage, while also sealing (concrete?, hacksaw? solder & cap?) the water line she was using for the appliance.

You cant destroy/dispose her property without risking suit, but you can certainly put it into the basement, the drier being illegal is an almost certain fire hazard, and the washer has its own issues.

While RC tenants are very very hard to get out, if they pose serious hazards to other tenants, they CAN be removed.. she'd need to have done this more than once though for that, and youd need to go through a lot of court, evidence, procedures and money to do so.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:23 PM

Any lawyers out there? A legal course of action? What rights do single owner landlords have against this kind of attitude from RC tenants?

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:25 PM

What can I do?
NOT. . . What do you "think" I can do!

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:29 PM

Again, I stand by my recommendation that making the washer work in the apartment - with adequate plumbing, a leak pan, and some quieting insulation below it - could be a cheaper option than wasting money on lawyers and court fees, or hauling it out, etc. Just because it offends you to do it doesn't mean it isn't the cheapest and less onerous option. There are many times in life when negotiation so everybody gets what they want is the best outcome for both sides, even if you don't like being put in the position of having to do so.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:43 PM

2:43 PM, you clearly do not pay water and sewage bills, do you?

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:48 PM

Suck it up and call a lawyer. Did you actually buy a building with rent controlled tenants? Ouch.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:49 PM

You are cutting off your nose to spite your face . . .or however that saying goes.
She is violating the terms of her lease and if you think you can get another tenant or decontrol the unit you should begin an eviction proceeding against her. Why are you adverse to hiring a lawyer? You can spend the money over the next year or two in increased water/sewer charges (and maybe witheld rent from a lower floor tenant when the unit overflows) or you can pay a lawyer and get this obviously recaltricant crabhole out now. Why would you wait?

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:56 PM

2:48 - I have paid 'em, but as an attorney, I know attoreys' fees are worse.

Also, given the human nature of dealing with angry people, as evidenced in OP's last comment, sometimes things are all around calmer if you compromise.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 2:56 PM

They've already installed satellite TV w/o your approval, now W/D. If you allow this to continue and actually accomodate by changing plumbing etc, what's next? A hot tub/suana/whirlpool waterbed combination and an illegal pool in the backyard? You've gotta draw the line, at least consult a lawyer, in person, to find out what your options are. No one said being a landlord was necessarily easy or cheap, but you're allowing yourself to be trampled by an unreasonable tenant.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 3:08 PM

I'm sorry, but what is wrong with working with your tenants to allow them to watch TV and wash their clothes at home? Don't you do these things?

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 3:23 PM

Rent Controlled tenants are a different breed. They believe that because they exist, they are entitled to EVERYTHING! As long as they actually don't have to pay for it themselves.

In principle, I believe good relations breed good relations back. But how do you reason with people who are so closed off from the real world, that a washer becomes the subject of rants about society and how "they" are trying to screw "us"! And I don't have a nice old brooklyn old school lady as a tenant, I have a MOTHERF. . . gasoline drinking, foul mouthed, wife abuser. He'd rather bust my kneecaps than talk.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 3:37 PM

2:43 and 3:23, washing machines can cause massive backups in older building that are not equipped to handle the amount of water and suds sent down the drain all at once. the pipes are not big enough.

it is not so easy to re-pipe the entire plumbing line of a building out to the street main. it costs 1,000's of dollars that the owner is never going to recoup, because the rent-controlled tenant's rent does not go up enough to ever cover the added expense.

it is also not fair that the other building residents have to deal with this tenants WASTE water backing up into their sinks while they are brushing their teeth, and bathrubs while they are showering, or that the owner should be forced to spend thousands on an improvement that does not benefit them in any way.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 3:40 PM

3:23/2:43 - Where is the compromise on her part? She takes it upon herself to install fixtures to the roof, a washing machine in her unit that will result in increased water bills. And now, as a "Compromise" you propose spending more money on pumbing to accomidate her. The compromise would be if she pays for the plumbing work, but she is not going to do that is she?

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 4:10 PM

If you act like a doormat people will continue to walk all over you. Show that you are not an invertibrate. As a landlord you are running a business. Get the professional advice to run your business properly or sell it to someone else or it will fail.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 4:39 PM

Please let us know what your findings are as it might help with similar issues facing landlords with uncooperative tenants.
thx

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 5:00 PM

There are services these days to pick up your laundry from you house, Ysabelle. Who gives a shit if the person is old or disabled. If your landlord doesn't allow you to have a washer, you can't have one. Period.

Posted by: guest at May 8, 2008 8:35 PM

My condo doesn't allow washers and dryers in apartments. If we installed one, we would be fined. How is this any different? You are an idiot Ysabelle.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 7:01 AM

OP: First of all, tenants do pay taxes. They may not pay your real estate taxes, but they do generally pay income taxes. Second, the pro se attorneys at Housing Court do exist to help tenants, not landlords. When landlords hire lawyers--as many here have suggested that you do, too--the cost of those attorneys is a business expense that will lower the taxes on your profits from this building. (I am assuming that you make a profit on the building.)

My suggestion would be to contact the Rent Stabilization Association. Despite the name, this is a landlord organization. They might be able to help you. But I do believe that you're going to have to hire a lawyer, or at the very least actually pay to have a consultation with one.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 9:52 AM

So after all this hot air.

Step 1, Serve Notice to cure, really as a way to just threaten them with eviction for violation of the lease, 15 day-stop or, next step. They laugh or scream in your face!

Step 2, Notice to evict, they wake up and call housing (on speed dial of course) and they tell you that because NY Sate protects Tenants better than landlords that you have no right to serve papers on them in the first place or you stated 15 days, not 25 as the small print defines as the correct, legal way to do this. Huh?Landlord you loose to remove.

Step 3, you can charge them per month, about 14 bucks for the use of a washer, a totally legal fee, has nothing to do with their RC status, they refuse to pay of course and you. . .

Step 4, Notice to evict for non payment of a perfectly legal fee that you are allowed to collect as the owner of the building! (DHCR Operational Bulletin 2005-1)
HA!

How's that for out side the box?

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 10:06 AM

OP: I didn't really want to debate the tax issue. I wanted to give you some advice. Don't worry, it won't happen again.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 12:34 PM

Brooklynnative:
I am a real estate attorney who works in Brooklyn. You seem to have figured out a few things for yourself, but here are a few items from my experience:
1) The system (housing court in NYC) is rigged to the advantage of tenants, even more so for rent controlled/stabilized tenants. The system is a disaster. Housing court judges are astonishingly pro-tenant. Sometimes they can take pity on a landlord of a small-time owner-occupied building, but in your case you probably have over 6 units and you have rent controlled tenants. Judges will probably look at you like a slumlord no matter what the rality is.

2) Rent control imposes very specific legal requirements (eg. specific content of notices and the way notices are delivered) on any legal proceedings brought by LL & Ten. When not properly satisfied (with evidence), these requirements can bring a swift end to any proceeding you may bring in housing court. What I am trying to say is that the NYC housing court system is a minefield. It is worth the expense to find someone who is well versed with the code and can handle your case efficiently and effectively. The situation is so arcane that I don't handle rent control cases even though I do commercial and non-rent controlled residential evictions.

3) Do not engage in "self-help". If you are not sure what that means, you should not take any action which could even remotely be percieved as you retaliating against her. Your safest route is to refrain from all verbal communications. Communicate only by written letter.

4) get a good attorney. If you don't have somebody reliable, ask everybody, interview attorneys, get one. In your business, you need one. You want somebody who is going to fight tenant adjournments and be responsive to your inquiries (not a very easy thing to find unfortunately). Good luck.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 2:41 PM

What NY State governing body dictates an owners right to refuse a tenants desire to have a washing machine that is causing "hardship" to all other occupants of a house?

Who is in control of the rules of the house - owner or tenant?

OK so forget about eviction, Tenant NO WASHING MACHINE! I'm not trying to get rid of you I am simply telling you no washer in the apartment that you rent from me.

You mean to tell me that this crazy lady has complete control over the owners simple request to stop using a washing machine. Isn't there a much bigger and uglier picture here?

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 3:07 PM

If you decide to go the lawyer route, I recommend Susan Cornicello. She was referred to us by Naomi Gardner (mentioned elsewhere in this post). Susan specializes in landlord-tenant stuff. Naomi I believe is more of a real estate transaction lawyer. Susan helped us with an eviction. We found her very easy to work with. It sounds like you are a DIY-type guy, but we were very happy to have a professional handle our issue. Missteps can be costly.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 3:54 PM

about ten years ago, i was asleep, dreaming of a waterfall. It was a very real dream and the water was very wet. My RC tenant had clogged her kitchen sink with vegatables and left the sink running. I had "metered" faucet installed (i.e. runs for a limited time only) and put in an oversized drain at my cost. Within the year she was in a nursing home and two years later the apartment was vacated.

grin and bear it because there aren't too many other options. when someone has a problem with RC tenants and pigeons and squirels, I'll be back.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 4:02 PM

Honestly in your case I would advise a lawyer. If she screams at the judge in L/T, then I wouldn't worry about L/T. No judge likes to be screamed at, and the washing machine and satellite dish and the painters who wouldn't go back in there should be always in the first paragraph of any paper you file.

Is it fair? No. The sorriest part is, if she were genuinely disabled, instead of merely crazy and deeply narcissistic, it would be fair. The vast majority of disabled people try to minize the burden of their disabilities on everyone else. It's just there's no way for the law to distinguish between the truly disabled on SSI and the undeserving few who managed to get benefits -- until she screams at the judge, that is. So I would take her to landlord/tenant.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 5:56 PM

I can't believe how stupid Ysabelle sounds on nearly every single post she does. It's kind of unreal.

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 10:59 PM

You should explore whether there's a way to get a court order to remove the washing machine (as opposed to ending the rent controlled tenancy). You could probably just go in and remove it yourself (or hire a NYC Marshal to do it) if done pursuant to court order. I'm not sure whether you would have to do that in housing court or in supreme. You will be much more sympathetic to the court if not seeking to end the tenancy. It may also be cheaper and certainly faster. You should spend time gathering evidence about the harm/safety risks caused by the washing machine. You should probably have some kind of inspection and report. You should also document all problems caused by the washing machine. If you do not have your evidence together, you are not ready for court. Try to at least consult with a good lawyer who can think outside the box a bit and come up with a creative, and more appropriate, solution to your problem (not one of those hacks who hangs around the housing court evicting people for a living).

Posted by: guest at May 10, 2008 12:17 AM

Brooklynative - would you mind sharing the name of the lawyer you find to help you, I have been looking. I have exactly the same problem, 4 family, crazy bad tenant, washer and all.
thx

Posted by: guest at May 10, 2008 10:32 PM

Best of luck to you, Brooklynnative, and to everyone with tenants who has posted here.

What a nightmare. Yours is a multi-family building which is different but it is reminding me how I never understood why people buy brownstones in which they have to have a tenant. You can get mostly great tenants but then it only takes one awful tenant to do serious damage to your emotional well-being, your sense of peace and happiness in your own home, and to your finances. Non RC tenants can be evicted eventually but still the process is long, expensive and destructive to one's own life at home. Ugh. The idea of a screaming crazy person living in MY own home, forget it. We got a one-family house and though we don't have the security knowing we'd always earn rental income, I never regret it. Plus who has the time to look after a tenant? I don't. Anyway, just my ruminations. Again good luck to you all!

Final thought - the way I would look at it and would hope a judge sees it this way too, is it's not the tenant who would have to pay for water or sewer damage if her washer overflows or doesn't drain properly. It's the landlord. And whoever is taking that financial responsibility should be the one who gets to call the shots! It's so logical and simple.

Posted by: guest at May 11, 2008 1:15 PM

Brooklynnative,
i also have a rent controlled tenant w/ a disposition similar to your tenant. i think he has 311 on speed dial. he's called everyday in jan & feb for the past two years for heat. I know there's no problem so i just ignore him. the last inspection by hpd resulted in a violation for an illegal alteration. the tenant did the work so now were in court.

my two cents is to not give in re the washing machine, especially since you mentioned that she's reluctant to go back to court. the advice of 2:41 was on point. i'd strongly suggest hiring an atty to handle this as failure to dot i & cross t will result in dismissal of your case.

guest 2:03,
no tenant has a right to install satellite dishes on the roof or any other common area of the building. demand that it be removed or just cut the wires yourself. there are housing court cases in support of this.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 7:09 PM

This thread obviously strikes a very real and common problem despite its washer beginnings. I too, live in the house I pay for with my family, but a rent controlled tenant controls the house! How many documented facts does it take before I can regain possession of my property? What line must be crossed before I can achieve a peaceful place to raise my kids without the vulgar atmosphere that permeates my hallways? Where can I find where the legal line is?
Anybody?

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 10:48 PM

unfortunately, in nyc tenants always have the upper hand. a trip to brooklyn housing court should be required of buyers of multi-family property. my experience has led me to believe that rent controlled tenants use intimidation since they know that the system gives them more rights to your property than you. be firm & don't let them get away w/ anything you wouldn't allow any other tenant to do. make sure you file for your rent increases each year.
be very meticulous about documenting behavior you believe is in "violation" of their tenancy. perhaps they'll change if they know they are being videotaped.
our wonderful city council has passed laws protecting tenants from harassment but turned a blind eye to the fact that a great deal of such harassment is done by tenants. eviction may be difficult & expensive but peace of mind is priceless.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 1:45 PM