do we need a building permit?

You will need a permit and also a new c of o

If you have an incorrect c of o the tenants can legally withold rent

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 7:24 AM

BS

Stuff like this is done all the time in NYC, mainly because of the mess the DOB is.

DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR TO A DOB INSPECTOR. They dont have a right to enter your home even if they suspect work without a permit. Do the work quick if possible and minimize your loading/unloading of materials at the building.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 7:45 AM

Follow 7:45's advice and your tenants can legally withhold paying you rent. Maybe not such a great idea?

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 8:50 AM

One risk of proceeding without a permit is that a neighbor who is tired of noise or dust will call DoB. DoB could then issue a stop work order, and you'd then need to get a permit and possibly also pay a fine.

As for the CofO, my understanding is that it's ok to have only 3 occupants (i.e., owner plus two tenants) in a building that has a CofO of 4. I don't know for sure, but i doubt that they could withhold rent in that situation. Could they withhold rent if you just left the parlor floor empty?!

You may, however, want to consider getting a new CofO anyway: Bringing the CofO down to three would likely get you a better tax rate, a better insurance rate, less obligations under the Multiple Family Dwelling laws (sprinklers, etc.), and other things. But changing the CofO would cost at least several thousand dollars. And i'm not sure if you'd want to file for that change without also filing for a permit for the work that you are doing.

Incidentally, one small downside to switching the CofO from 4 down to the 3 is that, whenever you sell, the buyer of 4-family does not have to pay a mansion tax.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 9:07 AM

We did pretty significant work without any permits (plumbing and waste line moved, one wall moved), at our GC's suggestion. I was super nervous, and researched here too. I think it's very common and easy to get away with it your neighbors and tenants are ok. We were fine, and we even had a pile of kitchen rubble in front of the house for a couple of weeks at least. Good luck.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 10:25 AM

It's worth spending the time and a little money to get the permit. If the DOB or a lawsuit comes your way for not having a permit, it'll cost you more time and money.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 11:09 AM

It seems silly to jeopardize your safety (e.g. if something goes wrong) or be subject by punitive action by DOB just to save a $$ or time. We reconfigured our house similarly when we first moved in, but now that we’re selling, I so glad we did everything by the books. As a homeowner, you've made a signficant investment. Don't take the low road now.

FYI, everyone I know that skirted the permit issue, got busted. It happens in even less establish neighborhoods such Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, Greenpoint, Red Hook...

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 11:32 AM

Get your architect to self-certify. That will eliminate the hassle with he DoB.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 11:45 AM

11:32 says why you need permits. When it's time to sell you will lose a lot of money in the sale because of violations on the books. And you'll have those violations because you will be reported to the DOB by your neighbors. Tearing out walls creates major debris and noise. Plus how are you going to park a dumpster out front without permits?

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 11:48 AM

So many on this forum bash developers for breaking the rules or pushing the limits, and now the rules are being negotiated by a homeowner, something that often takes place. You can't have it both ways.

When you operate without a permit you have to operate in the dark, fearful of a call to 311. If you have the stomach for that go for it, just be prepared to deal with any fallout.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 12:13 PM

Both myself and my neighbors made big changes without permits. Our plans of the house were vague enough (bathroom not mapped out at all) that we and the GC figured come sale time (no time soon) we would be fine. When we got a dumpster it was there for a morning and then picked up quickly. This was in Red Hook. Neighbors selling their house now for a TON of money, so assuming no problems with the work in their case.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 1:36 PM

3:14 your tenants can legally withhold rent if you have rental apartments. They can easily find out that you have no c of o.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 3:37 PM

3:14 if you think that mortgages are the same now as in '01 or '03 you are crazy. there is no way anyone will get a mortgage in the current climate without a correct c of o. we tried on a house recently and the bank wouldn't hear of it. the owner suggested taking out kitchens, etc, so that the house would look as if it were correct according to the c of o. lot of time and money nobody wanted to touch.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 3:42 PM

I did the same thing you are thinking of a couple years ago. No permits.
And my life is just fine.
And it is b.s. about tenants not paying rent.
You can use a 4 family as 3...just not a 3 as a 4 family.
The rental apts have their cOFo.
If you look at houses for sale - you will find plenty of examples of 4 families used as 3.
As far as going thru the process of new CofO for 3 family ---- you would end up with high taxes because assessed at new full value with new CofO.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 3:58 PM

The same debate is repeated. You don't normally need a c of o for an old building. However, once you change it from a 4 to a 3 for example, and file permits with dob, you will need to get a c of o.
I would suggest doing the work without one. I recently converted my 3 family to a 2. I used an architect and got the proper permits. 600k later, the dob inspector came and checked everything off in the house but then had many objections for the exterior. Things like a cracked step on my stoop. Now I'm spending 30k more. Once the permits are there, I have to follow thru until the C of O or I cannot refi. There is no guarantee that when the DOB comes back they will not have another list of objections.
If you get a permit to put up a few walls and the dob comes in, they will find things like not enough outlets on each wall.
As for tenants not paying rent if you don't have a c of o, people are confused. If you have a 4 family and you illegally add a 5th, then the tenant can withold rent. Very few brownstones have a c of o.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 4:50 PM

What a thread.
1. There are jobs I would do without a permit, but certainly not combining two floors, which involves a change of use and occupancy. The various risks involved don't go away with time - in the future the dob can make you put the whole thing back the way it was if they don't approve it after the fact; a future buyer may or may not want to see evidence that the work was done properly and inspected.
2. You do not have to change your c of o if you use a 4 fam as a 3. You can, but you don't have to. And changing it isn't going to lower your taxes, as you'll get reassessed.
3. If you think the 'cost' and hassle of getting the city involved is too much, you can't afford the job at this time.
4. If your insurer finds out that you did this kind of work without proper permits, and without telling them in advance that you are doing the work, they could drop you. No I'm not kidding. And if there is a claim against you of any kind resulting from the work, whether it is justified or not, you will be on your own.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 5:04 PM

So they can legally withhold rent but live in the apt? Hmmm...is that likely? Why couldn't the landlord just evict them?

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 5:32 PM

1:36
This why Red Hook will remain a backwater,industrial wasteland. Homeowners that think they're above the law = marginal social and civic involvement and zero political clout.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 8:50 PM

I've been on both sides of the fence, permits and no permits. For something like this, in my opinion you're better off not pulling permits. Yes you are subject to civil penalties if caught, but that does not make you a criminal. They are civil penalties.
The real issue and purpose of building codes are safety and infringing upon your neighbors. This sounds like neither is a problem, and it's the yardstick I use when pulling a permit. I think that the vast majority of posters agree. If it doesn't negatively impact me, and doesn't create a hazard, I don't really care what you do inside your own home.
I can't think of the last time I pulled a permit to park a dumpster, or the last time anyone gave me a hard time about it. If memory serves me correctly, the difference between the cost of the permit and a summons is less than twenty dollars, so the vast majority of people would rather pay the ticket (IF they are bagged) rather than spending the time and effort to get the permit. You can also go with one of the services that send a compactor to site and it is loaded and removed the same day.
The majority of problems arise when people don't use common sense or courtesy. Make sure you clean the street everyday, if you are getting a dumpster, make sure you put it in front of your own house, not the neighbors. Stand outside when it is being delivered, make sure that they don't drop it on the neighbors sidewalk, let the neighbors know approximately how long it's going to be there. Things like that always make things go a lot smoother. Same thing with the construction. When you get home at two in the morning after a particularily rancorous meeting, don't take out your frustrations by demo-ing a wall. If you are wondering if it's too early to start work, it probably is.
If an inspector shows up, be nice to him! You don't have to let him in, but tell him (I'm not being sexist, I don't think that DOB has a single female inspector, and if they do, I've never met her) in a way that's not going to be offensive. They're human too and if you make it personal, you will lose.
Good luck either way.

Posted by: guest at May 17, 2008 7:21 AM

i am really shocked at the double standard going on in this thread.

would ANYONE on this blog consider for even a moment that a developer should do even a minor renovation without proper DOB permits? Why should a developer be held to a higher standard than a home owner? because there might be a profit involved?

sure, the DOB is an expensive hassle. i am an architect, i know of what i speak. but guess what. it is the LAW. is the criteria for obeying the law or doing the right thing the level of convenience? or the probability of getting caught?

as for insisting that the architect self certifies (technically it is professional certification), consider that you are asking the professional to certify that EVERYTHING with the project and the application is 100% correct. Can any of you certify that your work is perfect? it creates a level of liability that i am not willing to take on. if my client insisted, my fee would go UP.

Posted by: guest at May 17, 2008 11:16 AM

Well, you said your building is a brownstone (which clearly means in was built before 1938). Therefore, you most likely DO NOT have a Certificate of Occupancy (and it is not required). MEANING, the use is not clear and the changes you seek may have been "pre-existing."

Any mention of the proposed hindering the sale or financing of your property is ridiculous. Anyone who says otherwise has no experience with this.

I would go ahead and do the work without a permit. Save yourself the time and possible disapproval. From what it sounds you only have a couple days of work (if even). I recommend monitoring the DOB BIS while you are doing the work to see if any complaints pop up. THEN, just keep it low key until the inspector has made two-three attempts.

Posted by: guest at May 18, 2008 3:28 PM

Another thing is, even if you are caught by some random chance of luck. The Buildings Dept. will have you do one of two things 1) Restore to prior condition OR 2) Pull permits..

The only way you will be subject to a fine is if you do not respond.

Posted by: guest at May 18, 2008 3:34 PM

First, the biggest risk and reason to get permits is, as an earlier poster noted, insurance. If you perform work (and yes combining 2 floors is significant) and there is a mishap (injury, flood, fire), today OR tomorrow, you will be screwed b/c the insurer will deny the claim. Read the fine print of your policy: anything done that is not pursuant to law/code will nullify coverage. Second, anyone that says tenants don't have to pay rent b/c a Cof O is incorrect, or b/c un-permitted work is performed, they're on drugs.

Posted by: guest at May 18, 2008 7:19 PM

8.50 PM, that is why Red Hook will always be full of interesting, creative people. Not boring, chinless yuppies. YAY!

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 10:24 AM