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April 22, 2008
Steam heat and reno
I'm beginning a fairly comprehensive renovation on a 4 story brownstone. Currently it has a steam heat system which the previously seller said gave him no problems. My contractor thinks I should change to hot water since we're opening up all the walls now.
Is it worth 20K to do this. Obviously it will cost more than that later if it proves to be necesary, but why would it be? Would hot water save money in the long run?
Comments
Interesting question. Your steam system works fine. However, I think a hot water system works better at delivering heat. Steam heat, cools off rather fast when the boiler is not working hard. Worth 20K to make a change to hot water? I'm not sure. If you're looking to save money on heating bills I would put that money in new windows and insulation in the walls. Anything you can do to use less energy over time, is the way to go.
Posted by: Rick at April 22, 2008 4:43 PM
I'm planning a reno including a switch to hot water because I'll be opening walls too. One question may be how much you trust the previous seller. How was the heat this winter or did you not get the property until now. It certainly wouldn't have been in the seller's interest to tell you it was anything other than ok.
Posted by: guest at April 22, 2008 4:53 PM
Steam heat is not "efficient" the way we're coming to be familiar with the word.
That is to say there is no way to make a steam heating system "green" and it will always lag far behind a hot water system's ability to heat a building using less fuel.
Steam heating systems were designed for a time when the cost and availability of energy was of little concern.
I like steam heat because of its simplicity, reliability and ease to service, but if you've got an opportunity to convert, you should take advantage of it.
Hot water heating systems are much more flexible and adaptable to changing environments and temperatures, there are many different boiler options at various combustion efficiency ratings, the installers are less likely to make a grave error installing it and any new and upcoming efficiency and safety upgrade controls will be geared toward working with that system.
Good luck with whichever route you take.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at April 22, 2008 6:20 PM
The other thing to consider is hot water doesn't make as much noise and it doesn't have the condensation/drips/etc. that steam inevitably does...often ruining the wood around the base. My vote is for the hot water, but it is a tough call since yours is theoretically working... How does the wood look around the base of the radiators?
Posted by: amybnyc at April 22, 2008 6:23 PM
Master Plvmber et al,
Is one steam or hot water better suited to the issues specific to brownstones like balancing heat to all 4/5 floors or front to back of building?
Posted by: guest at April 22, 2008 6:38 PM
It depends on how the systems are designed and assembled. Balancing steam heat room-by-room is easily addressed by the air vents on each radiator.
Hot water systems can be installed to work in large portions controlled by a single control (a thermostat or outdoor temp sensor) or individual control at the radiators.
That's what I mean by hot water being "flexible and adaptable". Piped right, it can be tweaked to accommodate most any heating load.
Balancing is often an issue in *any* type of heating or cooling system, but those problems are easily remedied when care is applied to the initial design. Cheap installations often lack this ounce of prevention.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at April 22, 2008 7:08 PM
You haven't said the configuration of the building.
Two duplexes? Four floor thru's?
This would make all the difference, in that this is your opportunity to exit the heating business, and install separate hot water heating systems,gas driven for your tenants, if any.
The flexibility of Pex tubing with hot water heat is compelling, especially seeing as separate zones are so independently controlled. That is financially impossible with steam. Twenty years ago a controllable steam solenoid valve was $1200.00, I can't even imagine the cost now.
Your choice of radiator is significant also. cast iron baseboard is expensive but better than flimsy SlantFin clones. We have successfully recycled steam radiators for hot water, but they must be flushed with CLR or equivelant.
We are currently converting 6 units away from steam to gas/hot water/radiator.
Posted by: brucef at April 23, 2008 12:23 AM
We upgraded from steam to forced water when we did a gut reno and we're very pleased.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 1:02 PM
1:02 How big a place and how much did it cost?
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 2:06 PM
I generally agree with Master Plumber on his posts but this one I gotta say -- stick with the working, sound, already-there system. The dollars you pour into a replacement won't equal marginal savings between the two. And the green-ness of hot water v. steam is debatable. Save your money.
Posted by: Smokychimp at April 23, 2008 10:45 PM
Thanks everyone for the contributions.
The place is 4 stories (no basement). Its 20' X 40. Its configured as an upper triplex and ground floor rental.
The owner told me the steam heat was good after it was sold, so his word is trustworthy.
We are however, opening all the walls already, and it now looks like I'll probably need to buy a new boiler anyway, so its looking more like I should change to hot water. I've been quoted 18-25K to do the job. Does that sound reasonable?
Posted by: hegelian at April 23, 2008 11:54 PM
Thanks everyone for the contributions.
The place is 4 stories (no basement). Its 20' X 40. Its configured as an upper triplex and ground floor rental.
The owner told me the steam heat was good after it was sold, so his word is trustworthy.
We are however, opening all the walls already, and it now looks like I'll probably need to buy a new boiler anyway, so its looking more like I should change to hot water. I've been quoted 18-25K to do the job. Does that sound reasonable?
Posted by: hegelian at April 23, 2008 11:56 PM
i would switch to hot water no question. your heating bills will go down significantly. ours went down by half and the switch ended up paying for itself in the first year (we spent far less than 20,000 to change though).
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 12:16 AM
How much did you spend to convert the system?
Did you have a 2 pipe steam or one?
Did you convert your radiators?
How many floors is your place?
I guess I should several more estimates for the job...
Posted by: hegelian at April 24, 2008 10:48 AM
12:16 must've turned down the 'stat to 60 after switching, there's no way the efficiency of hot water over steam is that drastic.
Steam boilers (which must boil water) top out approx 82% efficiency, hot water (if you get condensing ones, may be 92-96%). Assuming $3000/yr bills on old system, you may save $320/year, so figure the payback on install at 50+ years. So you wouldn't change for cost reasons. Otoh, hot water is more flexible.
Posted by: cmu at April 25, 2008 5:29 PM
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