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April 23, 2008
Shady landlord lease question
My husband and I are have been living in our apartment since August of 2006, when we signed a one year lease.
When the lease was up for renewal last summer our landlady raised our rent by $200 and asked for an additional $200 in deposit (plus an extra $300 pet deposit for a second dog). We agreed and have been paying our rent in full and on time every month ever since.
However, she never gave us a new contract to sign. She claims to be too busy but, as is typical of her M.O., I suspect she likes to have the freedom to kick people out or raise rent at any moment and therefore has conveniently forgotten for what has now been nearly a year.
Now we have bought an apartment elsewhere and are planning to move out by the end of May (mid June if she’ll accept a pro-rated rent for that month). Am I correct in believing that we are free to leave as long as we give her 30 days notice given that we are technically now on a month-to-month lease?
I’ve done a little research online, but haven’t been able to find a concrete answer.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Comments
What is the status of the apartment?
Rent stabilized, condo or coop rental etc.?
How many apartments in the building?
The answer to your question depends on the status.
Posted by: Ysabelle at April 23, 2008 8:46 PM
no lease = 30 days notice but prorating is not required
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 8:47 PM
If you have no lease, you are a month to month tenant. 30 days notice is sufficient. She has no recourse since she never gave you a new lease to sign. If she had, she could hold you to the lease for the rent.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 8:49 PM
Why don't you just tell her when you want to leave and how much deposit you expect back. No need to give her only 30 days if you have more time.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 9:07 PM
Give her a pro-rated rent check on the first and tell her to apply the deposit to one months rent. If you have nothing in writing for the extra $500 she probably won't give it back. Seems like her M.O.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 9:19 PM
I am sorry that your experience has been so negative with your landlady. (I imagine there is some sort of back story which justifies the snarkiness of your references to your landlady) It is not uncommon, however, for folks to go month=to-month after successfully completing the first lease. And, as your story shows, it cna be beneficial to both landlord and tenant (if you'd signed a lease you'd be stuck now, wouldn't you?). The more notice you give the more likely you are to get all your deposit back. She (despite her "m.o.") is human too. Better with honey than vinegar. The 30 day notice applies to each renatl period btw - thus if you want to leave in June, you have to give notice on May 1st, not 30 days before the you want to leave (unless she agrees you can't really get pro-rated time during the last month, it is all or nothing).
Posted by: Putnamdenizen at April 23, 2008 9:40 PM
30 days notice is fair. Use your deposit as last month's rent and don't count on getting your pet deposit back if she's shady. Take pictures of EVERYTHING and leave the apartment clean.
Posted by: guest at April 23, 2008 9:44 PM
The above advice is great, and also -- send your notice that you are not renewing the lease by certified mail with the date you are moving out, and that you expect the deposit and deposit's interest on that date. You then have proof of the specific date for the, and it puts your landlord on notice that you're wanting your deposit back reasonably promptly. I think NY gives about a week for the return of a deposit, but I don't think it hurts to be aggressive about it.
Good luck!
Posted by: Smokychimp at April 23, 2008 10:39 PM
Take this in terms of relative justice, but if you stiff your landlord on the last month's rent by using the deposit -- and there is ANY damage, dirt, crazy paint or whatever when you leave -- your MO is as unsavory as hers. Even if she's been weird, do the right thing. You're an owner now too so you certainly see this.
That said, without a current lease, all of the above is correct. What would she be able to do to you without a contract, anyway?
Posted by: corolla at April 23, 2008 11:44 PM
I believe 9:40's right. Technically I believe it's 30 days notice from the end of the calendar month that you're in. It definitely is for the landlord, it probably is the same for tenant.
Meaning if you give notice to vacate April 30, then you're fine leaving May 31. But if you give notice May 3, then it's June 30 you leave, not June 3.
Posted by: Johnny at April 24, 2008 9:23 AM
You should read your original lease and see if it provides for a certain term after its expiration if you remain in possession. Some leases state that if the lease is not renewed, it continues on a month-to-month basis, or on the same basis as the original lease (yearly, in your case). It probably doesn't say anything (in which case you are month-to-month), but you should check. I believe the Real Propert Actions and Proceedings Law provides that if you're a month-to-month tenant, you should provide 30 dys notice (but you should check that). I'd send her a certified letter, return receipt requested, notifying her of your intention to move (and keep a copy and the receipt). I'd also not make the last month's payment, but that's just me.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 10:05 AM
Most leases state that the tenant cannot use the security deposit as the last month of rent. The security is the money that the landlord keeps to ensure that you return the apartment in good condition. As a landlord, I would never let a tenant use the security deposit as the last month of rent, since there is no incentive for the tenant to repair holes and leave an apartment broom clean.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 10:27 AM
Just make sure the terms are clear. I moved out in the middle of my last month on a lease. I told the landlords and real estate agent we would be moving the big stuff on Saturday 17th and coming back that Monday to clean and take out the large trash as Monday was trash day.
As I was paid until the end of the month, I didn't think it an issue. Then I ran into the real estate agent on the street and he said the new people were moving in on Sunday the 18th.
After a few days of panic, they agreed to wait until Tues, yet I still felt bad for them as the place needed a paint job.
I also feel I should have gotten some rent back as they were getting double rent for those weeks.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 10:58 AM
Just make sure the terms are clear. I moved out in the middle of my last month on a lease. I told the landlords and real estate agent we would be moving the big stuff on Saturday 17th and coming back that Monday to clean and take out the large trash as Monday was trash day.
As I was paid until the end of the month, I didn't think it an issue. Then I ran into the real estate agent on the street and he said the new people were moving in on Sunday the 18th.
After a few days of panic, they agreed to wait until Tues, yet I still felt bad for them as the place needed a paint job.
I also feel I should have gotten some rent back as they were getting double rent for those weeks.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 11:00 AM
The security deposit is just that and it should not be used as your last months rent. It sounds as if you are renting an apartment that is not under rent control or rent stabilization guidelines and the building has fewer than 4 apartments in which case she is not required to keep the security deposit in an interest bearing account. She will probably return all of your security deposits as long as there is no damage to the apartment. Normal wear and tear is not considered damage but it should be left broom swept with no holes in the walls, floors, ripped carpets or inoperable appliances. Her M.O. sounds like mine to an extent. After issuing an inital lease, I will sometimes go month to month at the end of the lease term if I need to keep my options open as far as wanting to rent to another tenant who might possibly pay more rent. Difference is I would have let you know that I was not renewing the lease and that if you chose to stay, you then become a month to month tenant. Good luck in your place. There is nothing like owning a home of your own. You will not have to deal with landlords again and hopefully, if you become a landlord you won't get screwed to bad by your tenants. Believe me though, you will get screwed at least once or twice.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 11:07 AM
The security deposit is just that and it should not be used as your last months rent. It sounds as if you are renting an apartment that is not under rent control or rent stabilization guidelines and the building has fewer than 4 apartments in which case she is not required to keep the security deposit in an interest bearing account. She will probably return all of your security deposits as long as there is no damage to the apartment. Normal wear and tear is not considered damage but it should be left broom swept with no holes in the walls, floors, ripped carpets or inoperable appliances. Her M.O. sounds like mine to an extent. After issuing an inital lease, I will sometimes go month to month at the end of the lease term if I need to keep my options open as far as wanting to rent to another tenant who might possibly pay more rent. Difference is I would have let you know that I was not renewing the lease and that if you chose to stay, you then become a month to month tenant. Good luck in your place. There is nothing like owning a home of your own. You will not have to deal with landlords again and hopefully, if you become a landlord you won't get screwed to bad by your tenants. Believe me though, you will get screwed at least once or twice.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 11:26 AM
When I was a renter, I was always a great tenant. And I never paid my last month's rent. When I left, mid- or end- of lease, I'd send the notice letter certified mail stating my intentions, and telling them to apply the security deposit to the rent. I'd pay the difference to make the last month's rent if the security was never raised to equal the current rent. I'd never rent a place that asked for more than one month as security.
I always left the place really clean (more than broom clean really.) And I never, ever had a problem with a landlord about that. They were happy to get the place completely empty (I left nothing, no garbage) when I said I'd be gone, very clean, no holes, no damage, and be able to start charging more rent, etc.
I'd clean up and let them show it to potential tenants when I was still there when they wanted to - they have less incentive to mess with you about your deposit if they have no time when they are collecting no rent. (Not all want to do this, as some want to paint and replace appliances, etc. before showing it at an increased rent.)
Paying the last month's rent if you've done no damage is stupid - it's like challenging them to keep your money illegally. I've known many stories of people illegally having their security not returned (one, in a high rise rental, for "window washing" - as if it was the tenant's responsibility to put on a strap and climb outside many stories high to wash the outside of those windows! As if the building management wouldn't have called the cops to stop her had she even attempted this, or hired someone to do that - just think of their liability if someone fell!)
That said, if something were ever damaged, I'd attempt to work out reasonable payment with them - and I'd do it before I gave notice - but I'm a great tenant, so nothing was ever damaged. Rather, I usually, made some improvements were made while I lived there (shelves built into closets, tubs nicely recaulked, chipped ceilings and heat risers scraped and painted, whatever.) The "normal wear and tear" clause encompases the inevitable small blips and chips that happen in a few years time.
This is one area where "possession is 9/10ths of the law" applies - if they don't have your money, they can't keep it. I'd rather have them come after me for money if they thought they had a legitimate claim (in my experiences, most of the claims are bogus, like the high rise window washing one - you know if there's any real damage) than have to go after them to get my deposit back if they didn't feel like returning it. So many landlords think it is theirs to keep, like a fee for re-renting the place, rather than the *deposit* it is.
That said, if I rented from a large property management company, instead of small landlords, I'd ask around the building what the company's practices were when people left - it might be worth losing a security deposit to a shady management company and fighting to get it back (in many states, under consumer laws, you are well protected legally, but it is a pain to collect) rather than let them mess up your good credit rating, if that was their policy. (Don't know that *that* is the policy of large management companies, as I've never rented from one - I'm just curious, as well as cautious.) It's always good to collect information on their practices when you run into people who are moving out.
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 1:46 PM
30 days notice is nice, but absolutely not required under NYC law. In fact you could give 10 days notice on May 1, pay 10 days rent and leave on May 10. NOW>>>that's just the law. The right thing to do is to provide proper and fair notice. Do onto others...
Posted by: guest at April 24, 2008 11:37 PM
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