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April 1, 2008
Sagging support beams, again
I am considering buying a 4 floor brownstone in a "looted" condition. It has this same problem: the top 2 floors have a slight dip towards the middle. The inspector checked over the beams and they are in a pretty good condition, but because there have been new bathrooms/tubs installed in the middle of the house the weight over time has sagged the floors. He said it's not a big deal to jack up the floors, starting at the lowest level. The house needs a total rehab, so I'm not concerned about ripping through floors/ceilings. As many of you seem to have done this, what is a ballpark cost for this? Are we talking less than $10K per floor or more? Just any rough guesstimate is appreciated!!!
Comments
We have that as do many houses of a certain layout that made the center of the houses sag a bit. Even if part of the floors are torn out and the beams are replaced there is still some sagging. It's there to stay to a degree.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 12:31 PM
If you're doing a gut reno, when you rip out the ceilings, add some stiffeners to the floor joists that will be exposed. Then while the floors are down to the subfloor, pour an inch of gypsum self leveling (also great if you wanted to add radiant heat to the flooring). Since you're replacing wooden studs and plaster/lathe will lighter metal framing and drywall, the extra weight of the leveling compound should be offset by the lighter framing and drywall.
Level floors, same weight, less money and no jacking of the floor.
But run it by your engineer, as I am not a PE.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 3:37 PM
In quite a few of the old rowhouse, whether brownstone, or frame, the interior framing is a combination of timber framing and baloon framing. I've worked on quite a few with the same problem that you are describing, and it is rare that you wil be able to "jack" the dip out of the floor. What I've had the best results with, especially if you are gutting the place is flipping them so that the bow is up and then sister on a new joist to the side. Sistering a joist onto the bowed joist as is doesn't add much strength. But if you can flip the joist, you will end up with the curve actually adding strength overall, and I've had better luck pulling the curve down to level it rather than pushing it up. It sounds more complicated than it is. Just for comparison one time I sistered a new joist onto one up and one down, huge difference in bounce. Depending on the span, you might want to consider engineered lumber as well. I have twenty foot uninterrupted, unsupported spans with no noticable bounce in my personal house after doing this.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:21 PM
Sags are cool! We have practically no straight lines in our hours--floors, walls, ceilings all slope this way and that. These are old houses--love it!
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:47 PM
Agreed, 4:47. I've owned two very old houses and lived in about 5 others throughout my life and every single one of them had sags.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 7:37 PM
Oh my God that sounds gross, why do people want to live in decrepit saggy old houses?
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 7:40 PM
This is brownstoner.com, isn't it? As I understand it, they are all about 100 years old, and all sag, 7:40. Every one I ever lived in did.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 10:47 PM
I have done tructural work on quite a few older brownstones, and there are various "gotchas".
Probably the wood joists are now permanently banana shaped. Were you to jack one up adjacent to a new support wall, one or both ends will now be too high. This effect is exagerated in your hallway, as it is the shorter arm from the fulcrum.
The other commenters above, notably 3:37 with whom I completely disagree, address primarily the situation of flooring, while ignoring the problem of ceiling.
All their solutions require metal stud or lathe to level the ceiling below, which uses height and adds expense.
What I do recommend is the wholesale replacement of all joists with metal beams in new pockets, 16" on center. This supports the new sub floor adequately (assuming hardword flooring above)and makes a flat surface for the ceiling below. Fireproof, available perfectly straight in many sizes and lengths. Un-romantic, but this work can be done by merely competent crews, without requiring precision and judgement, qualities that are rare in NYC to begin with.
I don't think 10K a floor will do it, with demo and materials, 20K is closer.
On the time, quality, dollars continuum, this solution is better on time and quality, worse on cheap.
Bruce
Posted by: brucef at April 2, 2008 1:04 AM
1. I would not work with a contractor who is suggesting that a sag can be jacked out of a floor. That's kind of like trying to get taller by putting your body on a stretching machine.
Jacks are useful for support when you are doing structural work on your house, and they can fix *very small* imperfections in levelness. But when you push a lot (as would be required to remove a sag) on one part of your house, that push or force travels throughout the house. Asking for trouble.
2. What you are repairing as mentioned above is a banana-shaped joist or a joist that is no longer pocketed well because of water damage or termites or whatever. These are mechanical fixes that do not require the kind of intense chiropractic work you mention. The actual solutions are specific to your situation, but look for someone to give you a quote who's going to talk in terms of fixing the joists and not jacking away the problem.
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 7:45 AM
"Oh my God that sounds gross, why do people want to live in decrepit saggy old houses?"
Yeah, because you know, who wants to buy a property that is more desireable and increases in value so much more than newly built condos or new suburban houses?
Besides if you're talking aesthetics, there is NO comparison. No stylish cool person I've ever known in my life didn't much prefer an old house over new, sags and all.
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 1:23 PM
Bruce,
3:37 here. I should have specified that I assumed the stiffeners that I mentioned to be added would be hung to not only stiffen the joists, but recreate the level ceiling. I personally like two pieces of engineered wood (like that in the web of an I-Joist) separated by a cap (to form a "U") and then hung under the present joist and glue, nailed and thru-bolted.
You may lose a little bit of headroom where the ends of the banana are higher than the dip in the center, but that won't be more than an inch or two...hopefully or you have a bigger problem.
I wasn't thinking about a dropped ceiling because as you mentioned, cost and ceiling height.
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 2:52 PM
Thanks for all the response!! Due to factors beyond my control, I am no longer buying the house I described initially. The new house has the same problem, but only on the scale of one floor. It's a 2 story brick house w/basement, and the top floor has a considerable sag. This has to be fixed; I get dizzy walking on it and the ceiling of the 1st floor looks crooked. I am looking now for any references to contractors who can do this kind of structural work. Also, I plan to move the staircase. Any leads??
( The complete internal demo of both 1st and 2nd floor will be taken care of by a different contractor before this structural work will take place.)
Posted by: Sputnik13 at April 25, 2008 3:20 PM
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