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April 1, 2008
Property Line What to do??
When we bought the house last summer we got the survey that showed our property line which is the row of bushes. Now in front of the row of bushes is a chain link fence then a wood fence. I guess none of the other previous owners could have been bothered with removing the old fences.
Our neighbor, who is old, is NOT SO nice. That description is being generous. She has threatened to sue more than a few of people on the block. She has even called the Buildings Department on her other neighbor. Also called them on the previous owner per the public record. Now many of these complaints were from when she was a bit younger. She is making our life very difficult.
So my questions is how do I go about getting the fence pushed back to the property line. I am told that since the bushes are the line I do need her permission which was made very clear by her screaming and yelling at me and threating to sue me that I can not take them down.
What can I do? The owner has made it very clear that she is not giving us an inch and even feels that our fences infringe on her property line and our survey is "fake".
From the bushes to the wood fence is 1'7" basically that is wasted space that no one is using because of the bushes and fence. Also the owner's yard is a complete disaster. Filled with leaves and debris. She does not use the area and has not had that yard cleaned in who knows how long. All her landscaping or lack of it is all overgrown and out of control.
What can we do???
Comments
She can yell all she wants if you're right. Her bushes are on your land. Sounds like you have 2 fences also on your land that you don't want. Take them out if you don't like them.
Personally, I'd do whatever I felt like with my property. If she sues, she'll lose. If you don't like the bushes, pour roundup (weed killer) on them or just dig them up and throw them away. If you left your property in her yard, she'd have the right to do the same.
What are you worried about. It sounds like she'll yell regardless of what you do, so go about your business rather than trying to coddle her.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 2:35 PM
Google "adverse possession", maybe with the added phrase "New York". If the fence line has been there more than 10 years and she can prove it, your neighbor may be perfectly within her rights to claim the land as her own.
Posted by: johnife at April 1, 2008 2:37 PM
I tried to post a photo but it won't load up. Did I mention her son in law is Real Estate Lawyer. The bushes have been there for well over 30 or so years, which is the exact line. I can not say how long the chain link fences has been there. The wood fence the last owner put up so less then 10 years. Really no one can use any of the space. I do not think it is as easy as just pulling these 10 feet high row of bushes out.
I will try to post photo's again.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 2:44 PM
You are better off not ignoring this problem for the reason Johnife describes, but it's a far more drawn out process than simply as claiming the property because the fence was there.
If you have a proper survey, run it by your lawyer of course but it's probably worth proceeded immediately to built a fence that establishes the correct property line.
Then it's up to her to proceed to sue (something different altogether than just making a threat). If it really came to that you ask for a dismissal since you have followed the survey.
Posted by: Smokychimp at April 1, 2008 2:48 PM
That's what the survey is for. Anything on your property is yours to deal with however you wish. She has NO say. She can't claim land that the survey says is not hers. Take the bushes out and the fence down IF THE SURVEY SHOWS THEY ARE YOURS and tell her to do whatever your vocabulary will allow.
You should have the people that did the survey mark the property so that you know exactly where the lines are. It's not standard practice with a survey but it can be done for an extra charge. Even if they have to do the survey over its worth the money when you have a neighbor like this.
Just because she screams and yells doesn't give her legal ground.
Just be sure you don't do anything that you shouldn't without permits or she WILL get you
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 1, 2008 2:49 PM
what John Ife said.
Posted by: brownstoner at April 1, 2008 2:50 PM
we have the same issue - pull down the old fences as soon as you can. then if the bushes are on your land do what you want with them. adverse possession is pretty tough to claim and if in fact the bushes are her "fence" then she is going to be hard pressed to claim that the land behind the bush and between the old fences is hers.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 2:51 PM
I get what John Ife said but it's not just a fence what about the row of bushes along the line, I spoke to my Real Estate attorney and she said since the bushes are the property line and they basically are so over grown they are on both property that I can not just pull them out with our her permission.??
Brownstoner is there a problem with loading photos? I tried to create a new post but I keep getting an error message.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 2:54 PM
Yup, agree with Ife and stoner. This is often a complex issue involving easements and adverse possession. The particulars and time periods of "open and notorious" use vary from state to state.
That's why you sometimes see those brass plaques in sidewalks that say "permission to pass upon this property may be revoked at any time."
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 2:57 PM
Pull the fence. PUll the bushes.
Build a new fence.
Pull up a rocking chair, take a seat, with a loaded gun and a bottle of Jim Beam.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 3:21 PM
Leave the bushes, you probably want then there anyway to delineate the property line. Take out the fences. Let her take you to court, if she has the money. As far as adverse possession goes, it's for her to prove.
Posted by: denton at April 1, 2008 3:21 PM
Kill the trees late at night. Bleach is cheaper than Roundup. When they're dead you'll be able to claim they're a hazard. Then you can call the dob on her since they could blow over in a storm and damage your house.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 3:21 PM
I love the shot gun Idea!!!
I am think and agree with just removing both fences and leaving the bushes. Her daughter did say I do not care what you do with your fences...
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 3:24 PM
Why don't you try to deal with her real estate lawyer son-in-law. At least you'll be able to communicate in semi-rational manor, and he might have some sway if the law is really on your side.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 3:57 PM
I am going to fax him a letter with a copy of our survey and ask for him to offer me the same courtesy and fax me hers so we can come to an amicable agreement as to where the line is.
I am sorry everyone I have tried several time to post a photo but I keep getting a survey error.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 4:02 PM
Get a good real estate lawyer to consult first. If you don't have one I can recommend one. Proceed from his advice.
Are the bushes an eyesore as well or do you just want to pull the fences down?
But you need the surveyor to mark the property no matter what
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at April 1, 2008 4:02 PM
Your survey (and presumably title insurance) will defend you from her claim of title to the property shown on your survey. I would hire a reputable contractor to install a legal fence (appropriate in relation to the line) and put the ball in her court. If she is able to bring a successful adverse possession claim (a difficult claim to prove) then your title insurance company owes you the reduction in the value of your land. See an experienced real estate attorney immediately.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:14 PM
Whoa, memories of first year Property are a-swirling. I have a faint memory that adverse possession in New York is diffuclt to prove. Basically, the only way a non-owner can prove AP is if she's been in possession "under color of law." Drat, I can't even remember the definition of UCOL. Van Veulkenberg v. ? Sorry, it's been years. That's not entirely helpful, I know, but as an attorney (who admittedly doesn't practice real estate, but is a litigator) I'd recommend that you heed your attorney's advice and not decimate the bushes. Do you really want to enter into litigation with a completely unreasonable person whose son is a real estate attorney? If he's as difficult as she is, he probably has loads of time to burn, and will gladly litigate this to the ends of the earth. And unlike your neighbor, you'll be paying attorneys fees. Do you have the time and the funds to finance this?
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:16 PM
How much this 1' 7" worth to you? Would you be saving yourself some hassle if you just let the fence and bushes stand where they are? Would your life be so much better with that extra 19 inches?
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:17 PM
Glad that DIBS got around to recommending talking with an attorney, cause I totally disagree with his first post. ...and do it before you contact sonny-the-real-estate-attorney. I agree with johnife, 'stoner and 2:57. I read recently about a property owner that planted a garden on MTA land and the courts awarded him the property win the authority tried to take re-possession.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:17 PM
If you ignore this she will have an adverse possession claim. Don't ignore this. You don't have to necessarily remove her from the parcel, but if you give her a license to utilize the property you will extinguish an AP claim. Speak with an attorney immediately. If this grows into litigation, your title insurance company will foot the bill. You got title insurance when you purchased the house, right? This is exactly why you buy title insurance.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:28 PM
I get the whole possession issue and I know I am a broken record but I can not load the photo so you all can see what it looks like.
But is it her possession if no one can actually use that 1'7" because of the bushes and the 2 fences.
I could remove the wood fence and gain 7" and leave the chain link fence which is 1' from the property line.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 4:30 PM
From your statement "in front of the row of bushes is a chain link fence then a wood fence" I take it to mean that the fences are on your property. Your surveyor should mark the property line. When the surveyor officially marks the property line he/she is guaranteeing the line. Any items on your side of the line may be removed by you. If she sues you for tresspass and makes an adverse possession claim, your title company should defend you. It is worth the comparatively small initial attorney's fee to do this correctly. This woman sounds like a crankpot and you want to make sure you are within your legal rights before you start removing bushes and fences. Once you are sure and the line is where you think it is, you carefully remove everything on your side of the line and build the biggest fence allowed to keep that crazy on her side.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:42 PM
I think you are getting slightly caught up on the whole "possession" thing. It sounds like nobody is actually using the land at this time. Nevertheless, if this land was deeded to you, it is yours. She may try to claim that her property goes to the fence line closest to your house which would take a 1'7" strip from your land. Obviously you don't want her to do this. It sounds like you are not losing any friends anyway so you should put a fence as close as you can to the actual property line and leave it at that. If you put a fence on some other arbitraty line you are asking for trouble in the future.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 4:48 PM
I was able to post the photo, thanks to the help of my husband. It's up on another post.
So now you can all see it.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 1, 2008 4:58 PM
Ah, thank goodness for those techie husbands, lol
Posted by: denton at April 1, 2008 5:06 PM
Yes, you can remove the fence on your property. A fence being on your property doesn't entitle her to take title to your land by adverse possession. However if she put up a fences and openly used your land for 10 years (which is not happening because this is unused space between fences and bushes) she could theoretically attempt adverse possession. You should take control of your property, and (armed with your survey) do what you want. Ignore Ife and Brownstoner and people telling you to live in fear of the old hag and a claim on your land. Speak to your own RE attorney if you're worried.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 5:07 PM
1'7" is a significant width of land on a boundary. It's worth fighting over.
She's always been paying property taxes for her property as it's recorded with the city and confirmed by the survey you had done. She knows that, right? Why are people dumb?
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 7:48 PM
Get a survey and a stakeout then just call the cops when she gives you shit.
Posted by: guest at April 1, 2008 11:24 PM
Just curious, where do you go to get a property line survey? We never did it when we bought our brownstone but we have been talking about doing it now.
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 7:53 AM
I would like to thank everyone on Brownstoner for there great advice.
I have spoken to 2 Real Estate lawyers. Both agreed that I can take down both fences, but I can not take down the bushes, with out her consent. One did mention adverse possession that she MAYBE could claim that since the bushes have been there for more then 10 years.
The bushes have been there before she bought the house in 1983, so we do not know which owner planted the bushes and we will never know.
Both lawyers said I could remove both fences and that would be with in my right and then I essentially will gain that space back just from the pure fact that she is most likely not going to spend a dime to do anything.
At this time I do not want to remove them because I have small children.
Thanks to all I did learn a lot. My only advice is hope and pray you have nice neighbors, as your neighbor does affect your quality of life more then you think.
Posted by: Absolute Beginner at April 2, 2008 9:53 AM
Absolute Beginner -
I am gearing up for a battle of my own with a neighbor over driveway easement rights. Can you please post the names of the lawyers whom you consulted?
Posted by: guest at April 2, 2008 4:18 PM
Good luck, Absolute Beginner. We also had issues with a neighbor (noise) and had to consult an attorney and hire a noise expert. It was only because we had such awesome neighbors in other nearby houses we became friends with, that we came out of it all feeling good about our house and our neighborhood. So my advice is to make the effort to know your other neighbors you may have more in common with, to balance out the bad neighbor experiences.
Posted by: guest at April 3, 2008 11:52 AM
Been there, done that. Such memories...
Moved into our home in 1982, with the twin sister of your neighbor living next to me. We were renovating and every excuse she could come up with to sabotage our work was tried, including bringing in her son "the lawyer" (who it turned out later was a law clerk).
We tried to remove the fence (built by the previous owner of my home) and she claimed it was her fence and on her property, although it was clearly on our property.
Here's how it finally got resolved:
We had a very active block association, and I went to them to describe my problems with upgrading my property and removing my fence. They were well aware of my neighbor's history of false claims and histrionics. The president of the association (a long time and respected resident who actually was a retired judge) offered to arbitrate the dispute. He came to the site, examined it and heard both sides of the story. He looked at all the documents including the survey and our architect's plans for improving the back yard.
His "verdict": not only were we completely in the right about removing the fence, but he argued that the work we were doing would significantly increase the value of our neighbors unkempt property. When she heard that, her tune changed. I also think that hearing this from one of the long time residents and not the newcomers had some impact - she was clearly hoping to save face with them.
Our relationship improved significantly after that. A few more incidents, of course, but quickly resolved. She actually approached us about the name of our architect, so that she could renovate her house (a duplicate of ours) because "ours was so nice". She passed away about five years later, but whenever I look out over my fence into her yard (where her son the law clerk now lives) I think of her.
Posted by: walester at April 5, 2008 3:57 PM
yes, walester, but you missed the point - the OP doesn't want to take down the fences, but just wants to complain.
Posted by: guest at April 7, 2008 6:41 PM
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