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April 4, 2008
most up and coming neighborhoor?
know it's been asked before and i've looked around online, but... what's the most up and coming neighborhood. i'm looking for one that's not just residents moving in, but one where new, modern small businesses are being started. i'm looking to buy a 3 family or two family with storefront, but don't have loads to spend. ideally within a few years i start my own cafe within my building. also, is there any way to buy directly from owners anymore? thanks for your time.
Comments
I say this w/o any intention of being hostile but, frankly, in the current economic climate -- and, specifically, a recession driven by falling house prices -- the very concept of an "up and coming" neighborhood is an oxymoron.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:29 PM
Look for a block or series of blocks that desperately need amenities in a neighborhood with increasing numbers of young hip renters and young professional couples/families. PLG is a good example but the buildings on Flatbush and Rogers in PLG are larger than the type of small 2-family with storefront you are describing. Bushwick is probably the way to go. I'd say Red Hook too but Red Hook prices went too high outpacing the amenities that were there so you wouldn't pick up a bargain.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:36 PM
PLG? Prospect/Leffert Gardens? Also, am I too late for Clinton Hill?
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 4, 2008 12:43 PM
It really depends on the price you can pay. I would describe Clinton Hill as "up and coming" compared to Bed Stuy, but definitely up and coming relative to Park Slope. Hard to make an "up and ocming" generalization when nabes are so different.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:50 PM
RE: Clinton Hill -- it all depends on your budget. There is definitely a need for more retail of decent quality. We are shocked at the crowds at places like Mike's Coffee Shop, Luigi's Pizza and Choice Market - they all have hit a needed and much appreciated niche.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:52 PM
borders of prospect heights and crown heights. alot of young people and quick changes.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at April 4, 2008 12:55 PM
Maybe Clinton Hill along that slightly sketchier stretch of fulton. It's close to a lot of great housing and desperate for services. I know I've seen listings along there. I might wait a few months 'til there's no denying the recession so you can buy for less. You don't want the seller to be able to price it "as up and coming" when it will actually be facing the contraction 12:29 pointed out.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:57 PM
ideally i'd spend 1,000,000 on a 3 family brownstone or 1,200,000 on a 2 family + storefront. i'd truly like to be in clinton hill, but after looking at some prices in bushwick it's definately tempting. i'm also willing to pull up some carpet and do some painting/remodeling myself so...
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 4, 2008 12:58 PM
I'm going to say the southwest end of Bed Stuy for selfish reasons. I'd love to see a good cafe open right near me. A veg-friendly one. That's open for dinner. That delivers.
Posted by: rh at April 4, 2008 1:17 PM
wow, rh love your site!!
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 4, 2008 1:31 PM
With that price range, no part of Clinton Hill is really an option, unless you are willing to take a complete wreck requiring a complete overhall.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:02 PM
i was hoping someone wasn't going to say that, but figured that may be the case.
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 4, 2008 2:40 PM
Well then I'll say the opposite. Most places in Clinton hill have trouble when they price up near 2 mill. The east side nearer to fulton that was mentioned above is cheaper and has a greater need. As the economy contracts, the places people look for housing will too. I agree to wait 6 months and look there or the prospect heights/crown heights border. You can definitely buy in your price range. Also, remember that ask price does not have to equal offer price.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:50 PM
Someone mentioned border of Prospect Heights and Crown Heights. PH (and the types of folks who rent there) is moving further east into CHN. Lots of young people, PRATT types. Changes in this neighborhood have been very fast. There is a new wine shop on Franklin at Prospect, a new italian place will open on the opposite corner soon. The CrowHill community association is very active in revitalising storefronts on Franklin Ave in CHN. Walk around day - or after work - and youll see what I mean. Im amazed at the changes in just a few months. In this neighborhood you can find buildings in your price range - at least you can now - maybe not in a few years.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:32 PM
i agree with armchair and 2:50. vanderbilt ave in prospect heights has undergone very rapid change. as i type another restaurant/bar and live music venue is in the works on the corner of bergen st. so many places have opened in the past couple years. prospect heights and the ph/crown heights border is the definitely place to look. here's a link to time out ny about vanderbilt: http://www.timeout.com/newyork/articles/restaurants-bars/26377/bilt-to-last
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:40 PM
Washington Ave. on PH/CrH boarder is next...
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:55 PM
South Stuy!!!! It is so overlooked and there is so much opportunity. Its a business Improvement District with lots of financial incentives/programs available to the entrepeneur and there is intense commercial foot traffic on Fulton.
Its also close to subways and block after block of renovated (renovating) brownstones. There are all kinds of artists, actors, designers etc. moving into the area but they have nowhere to go for dinner or a drink.
Posted by: HomeSweetstuy at April 4, 2008 4:56 PM
Thanks, Swashbuckler! So does that mean you'll open the cafe near me?
Posted by: rh at April 4, 2008 5:32 PM
Bushwick god damn it !
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 5:49 PM
Stuyvesant Heights and outskirts...Nostrand to Lewis (East to West) and south of Jefferson...any new cafe/restaurant/specialty food store, etc. should do very well. Lots of demand and growing, with very limited supply at this point. See archives to witness said pent up demand...
Posted by: housebywe at April 4, 2008 7:37 PM
south south bronx... boogie down bronx. Note, y'all, he didn't say BROOKLYN
Posted by: denton at April 4, 2008 9:07 PM
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=943547
Offer them less if you don't have the ask, but this is a pretty amazing location.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:31 PM
I was going to say Franklin Ave btwn Atlantic and Eastern Parkway until you mentioned your budget. For that price you can do Washington or even Vanderbilt. Even so, I would still go for Franklin, it's about to pop and you can get a 2+store in the $700s. 2 years from now it will be completely different from what it is now.
Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:48 PM
wow, i didn't expect such a response. almost as if people are tying to find my a place!! lol, thanks for all the responses! i'm hopping on my bike today to go check out a few streets and may even stop by some of the suggested buildings. does anyone know where that buildling listed above is located? (the fulton one) also, what are people paying for 1 and 2 bedroom apartments in these locations? CrH, CH, and PH?
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 5, 2008 11:05 AM
The edge of Lefferts Manor, on Rogers Ave, is just crying out for what you propose to do. It is quaint even now-before cafes and the like. You must check it out. You would have a very eager customer base!
Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 12:47 PM
The buildings on Rogers Ave in PLG on the edge of the Manor are larger and would cost much more than a million to purchase were one for sale. He only wants to spend a million and doesn't want a huge gut renovation to do. So it means the size buildings the OP would be looking at would be quite small. Narrow and not more than 2 stories.
Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 6:45 PM
2 words FORT GREENE!
This area is booming and people want more stores here. Just go check out the brooklyn flea tomorrow and walk around the neighborhood. This area is no longer a fringe area, right off the C train or G and walking distance from fulton.
I know that there are several properties for sale that had mixed use zonings, you just have to request it from your broker.
Posted by: oldbaby at April 5, 2008 6:57 PM
well, if any of you were out walking around in, fort greene, clinton hill, bed-stuy, or prospect heights, today and you saw a mustached man on a bike, that was me...i'm pretty exhausted i have to say, but i figured i'd give everyone my full report and thoughts on what i saw.
1st stop, fort greene/pratt. loved the area, rode by choice market (which was crazy packed) and then all around the area and into the northern part of bed-stuy. this is an area i would love to live in (fort greene) and get involved in, but the G train scares the bejesus out of me. it's a train that takes you to another train more or less, doesn't really go anywhere. as far as bed-stuy, i don't think i'm that much of a pioneer.
2nd stop, clinton hill. talk about an area that has some great potential. i really like where fulton street meets vanderbilt(the rode was terrible for a biker though! my ass is sore as hell) think this area has a ton of potential, but i have to say i despise the transition where vanderbilt crosses atlantic avenue.
3rd stop, prospect heights. i can't say enough how much i'm into this area. i dated a girl a few years back that lived off vanderbilt and dean and the strip has changed drastically. (streets were packed! granted it was probably the first nice saturday of the year but...) vanderbilt is no smith st., but i almost feel like it could be. decent housing to the east and west, close proximity to the park and about the best train selection anywhere in BK. this is an area that i'm definitely going to keep my eye out for properties. i also think washington ave., like one poster mentioned, has great potential especially to south end near the park.
so i was also supposed to ride through crown heights, but i was friggin exhausted and had to meet my friend in park slope for lunch. the furthest west i got was classon ave. i stopped by a 2 + 1 storefront for 600,000 and was really impressed with that area. i didn't make it over to franklin, but maybe i will tomorrow. i'm gonna head out to the flea market.
well, i figured i'd give everyone an update on my quest. hope everyone enjoyed the weather.
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 5, 2008 8:41 PM
I've gotta say - the 1.35mm ask on the Vanderbilt property above is a great price for the location - don't know much about the property itself - but good pricing....if only I had it!
Posted by: guest at April 6, 2008 9:36 AM
swashbuckler - where in Bed Stuy did you go?
Posted by: guest at April 6, 2008 9:37 AM
this is a rough map of the route i took:
there was a lot more traversing back and forth in ft. greene and into bed-stuy, but that would have been too many lines.
9:37 - i went over to marcy ave around madison and gates and maybe a few other streets. then i headed to clinton hill area around fulton and vanderbilt/wash ave.
Posted by: swashbuckler at April 6, 2008 10:35 AM
seriously check out Franklin Ave. There is a big condo project being planned for the corner of Franklin and Eastern Parkway, right were the 2,3,4,5 trains stop.
There is a new bar being opened on St. Johns, a couple new cafes by Sterling and Park, Sushi down by dean and a brick oven pizza place being planned. Also, down by St. Marks there is a large development site that was just purchased (see a post on brownstoner from a week or so ago) where the developer may even put in a brew pub.
Good things are happening on Franklin.
Posted by: guest at April 6, 2008 11:39 AM
My advice is worth what you pay for it, Swashbuckler...
...But Pioneer my ass! I would consider Bed Stuy if I actually wanted to make some money. Have you been inside the Tiny Cup on any day of the week at just about any time of day? It's freaking packed!
Add to that these facts:
1. Commercial property in Ft. Greene = outrageously expensive
2. You can get grant money/low interest loans to start a business and/or buy property in Bed Stuy
3. There are already more cafes in Ft. Greene than you can shake a stick at!
4. Recession + tight rental market = more "upscale" renters gentrifying Bed Stuy and other "Pioneer" neighborhoods
And the sound business decision seems to be Bed Stuy. And I am not just saying that because I want to get coffee without waiting ten or fifteen minutes on line.
I am saying that because every single time I go to the Tiny Cup, while I am waiting in line I think very seriously about how much money is to be made in the 'hood.
Low overhead + limited competition + a neighborhood full of people who love good coffee and panini = $$$$$$$
Posted by: guest at April 6, 2008 1:33 PM
No one for the Far Rockaways, huh?
Posted by: guest at April 7, 2008 4:59 PM
I can't believe nobody mentioned Kensington! It's as if there's a whole mafia of PLG and Bushwick people on the list urging folks over in that direction. Kensington is bordered by lower Windsor Terrace, which has two great cafes - Crossroads & Lonelyville, and Ditmas Park, which has an awesome stretch of shops and restaurants along Cortelyou Road (Vox Pop, Connecticut Muffin, The Farm, Trailer Park, Belle & Maxie, a wine shop, an organic market, etc.).
Kensington has nothing but Church Avenue, which is filled with many Polish, Russian, Mexican, Bengali, and Albanian establishments, but nothing geared toward all the ex-Park Slopers. There is a huge market for a little coffee shop over there. All the newbies go to Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, or Cortelyou Road since there is nothing within immediate walking distance. People are dying for a slightly upscale establishment. You'd be swamped! Plus Kensington's super safe.
Posted by: guest at April 8, 2008 10:13 AM
^KENSINGTON...I live there and I love it.a good small town vibe in the big city..Oh and Ocean Parkway in the summertime is lovely when the trees are in bloom. Hey George's Coffee shop on CIA/Cortelyou is not bad at all. Granted we could use a few more stores/amenities but if this keeps it safe..I'll take it..
Posted by: guest at April 8, 2008 10:47 AM
Let's all move to NJ Kearny, huge one family for under $300k
Posted by: guest at April 10, 2008 9:07 PM
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