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April 25, 2008

BACK YARD BAR NOISE - SOLUTIONS

I've lived in house around 4th Avenue for over ten years. Last year 4th Avenue pub opened up a beer garden. Nothing wrong with that - except they stay open all night long on any given day so long as it isn't raining. What once was your only peaceful refuge from the the everyday noise of the city has been ruined. Since they don't play music, the DEP won't issue fines. And the 84th precinct just does the perfunctory visit, the noise stops and then it just stops back up again.

Now you may be thinking, "well don't live the City". Many of us have lived here ten, twenty, 30 years or more. Some are retirees, children, people who have to work in the mornings. None of us can sleep with the windows open. We all have to run our AC's at night because of the noise. The owner unlike the owners of Cherry Tree refuses to work with the neighborhood and do anything to reduce the noise or the hours of operation of the "beer garden".

Many must be thinking, "people like you hold the neighborhood hostage". The reality is 4th Avenue Pub in its complete contempt for the surrounding neighbors holds us hostage. After work, I rarely hang out in my garden because it sounds like a party on any given nice day. I'd rather hear the sound of music than the sound of drunks. Some may think I'm over reacting. Until you've had to deal with this every day for the past year, don't judge.

What I need is some suggestions on how to put an end to this contemptible behavior. I've never been the community activist sort, so I need some leads on how to begin.

Help.

Comments

Throw eggs at them.

Posted by: guest at April 25, 2008 9:42 PM

go ol skool i remember back in the day we used to be loud and get water thrown on us do the same .
i know what ur feelin i live in a building on fifth above a bar so i know about the feelin . a.c.to cover the noise also it s ruff.

Posted by: guest at April 26, 2008 1:49 AM

Posted by: guest at April 26, 2008 1:50 AM

Contact the community board. I do not know where on 4th ave you are, but you can figure out which community board serves you. They are experts in dealing with community issues, and they are your start for "activism". Good luck. Petition your neighbors. File complaints with the liquor licensing people. That is where you start.

Posted by: zapzap at April 26, 2008 10:44 AM

Community Bd 6 *which is probably where u are* just held 2 meetings regarding such issues.
I'd check to make sure they are not violating CofO (city dept of buildings) or terms of their liquor licenseissued by state Liquor Authority.
Try to speak with someone at community Bd.
This has become a problem on many blocks -
about time NYC did something about it.
Contact city council person also.

Posted by: guest at April 26, 2008 3:28 PM

Why wouldn't the DEP enforce noise made by conversation on a patio? It can be louder than music.

Make sure the noise code actually says that. Maybe you just got a really lazy DEP person when you complained. It happens. When we called the cops about a neighbor noise issue (loud music) the cops who came said it wasn't loud enough to be illegal, which just seemed absurd. So we hired a noise expert to measure it and it was so totally louder than the legal limit. Like by 3 times. Lots of people who work for the city have the attitude that residents should just put up with noise and they don't give a sh*t. So look at the noise code and talk to the community board and keep at it. Good luck!

Posted by: guest at April 27, 2008 12:26 PM

Why don't you go have a beer there when it's happening so you can see what it sounds like from inside the garden?

Then the next day you could go talk to the owner and explain how you understand their garden is very good business for them, and you, too enjoyed your experience there, but you'd like to work something out with them so you can enjoy your own personal space and they can find a way to keep their revenues high.

If they are right next door, you'll have to deal with them constantly, so it's better to be nice about it. I'm sure the owners are not complete asses.

Posted by: guest at April 27, 2008 5:26 PM

5:26 is right, this is the way to start. More flies with honey and all that...

Start by going and patronizing the bar and being nice about it, and give being nice a real chance. Some things that will help the "being nice approach":

1. Know exactly what you are asking for. Get together with your group of neighbors and define what would constitute a victory. You can't just go and bitch--you have to ask for something specific.

2. Make sure victory does not equal total annihilation. Both sides must win--you can't be nice and try to shut down the bar at the same time, and why would you want to? The bar can help you. When a bar opened on my block, I thought the noise was going to be a huge problem but really it just gave me more safety walking in the (previously sleepier) neighborhood at night.

3. Empathize with the owner of the bar. Seriously. He's got high overhead, a problem wherever he sets up shop, and dealing with your problem is elusive--he can't tell people to whisper. If you don't empathize with his situation, it will be easier for him to dismiss you.

Good luck!

Posted by: vanburenproud at April 27, 2008 6:13 PM

Honestly, I think if you go in with honey he will preceive that as a opportunity to blow you off til much later. That garden makes him hundreds of dollars every hour it's open. I think you need to show that you're going to pursue it. I would draw up a letter for the liquor board and the others that they suggested above and show it to him.

Tell him you would rather come to an accommodation, but, if he's not interested in being accommodating, the letter is already written.

PS As to the cops, DEP, etc., tell them their job if they arent doing it. They dont take it seriously til the 3d complaint anyway.

Posted by: slick at April 27, 2008 10:43 PM

Thanks for all the comments.
re: DEP

Concerning the DEP, they sent me a form to arrange a "metering" of the noise. But the form automatically discounts any noise from a bar that is not music. It says all non-music noise is a police matter.

Several neighbors surrounding the bar have filed complaints to both the 84th and the DEP. Nothing.

When one of our neighbors approached the owner in person at his bar, he had him thrown out by his bouncer. That neighbor has since moved after he had a kid. The noise kept the baby up all night.

5:26
As much as I love the new businesses on the block, this is the only when that shows so little respect. His incentive to limit the hours is low since it's the beer garden was the only thing that saved his business from going under. Until he opened it, the place was pretty slow.

The owner is well aware of the multitude of complaints filed against (and I'm sure the DEP's catch 22 and the 84th's hands off attitude).

My only demands would be that he limit the beer gardens hours of operation to say, 10pm during the week 11pm on the weekends. Cherry Tree did that and maintain a good relations with the neighbors. A bar opening on your block is one thing, holding a party in virtually your backyard every night shows a complete lack of concern or no common sense, neither of which I have much empathy for.

Anyway, it looks like I'll try the community board, liquor license, petition and councilman route.

Posted by: TNails at April 27, 2008 11:19 PM

TNails, your request seems so fair that I don't understand why you aren't going to at least try to talk to the guy.

I know you're frustrated, but there is a big difference between going down there, perhaps in a huff, probably when the noise is happening and tensions are high, and getting tossed by a bouncer and finding this guy during the day when there is no noise.

He will get shut down if he doesn't accommodate his neighbors, even if it takes awhile. You are doing him a favor by making it easy for him to accommodate you.

Serious. Talking to him directly in the absence of any noise might save you a lot of effort. Good luck!

Posted by: vanburenproud at April 28, 2008 3:07 PM

Definitely contact the State Liquor authority and see if they have a permit for backyard and also see if they are violating any rules with Dept of buildings etc. I have heard several people complain about that same bar so its better to get a group of people behind you - power in numbers you know?

Posted by: guest at May 9, 2008 3:31 PM

I don't live in the city but I have the same issue upstate. Definitely see if they have an outside approved area with the state liquor authority. Speak to your other neighbors and start a petition. I did this and was amazed how many people were affected by the noise but didn't want to speak up. In my small town, I went to city council meeting every week, talked to them, got them familiar with me to realize I wasn't some nut who wanted complete quiet. My experience is don't contact the owner, deal with it in other ways. Good Luck!

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 9:50 PM

I'm posting to this forum because I was searching the net regarding this issue and felt since
this is also a NYC issue, it would be a good idea to present my comment here also.
I live in the East Village and this has been an ongoing problem here for years now.
The police and government seem to want do the very least, if not absolutely nothing, to tackle
problem noise offenders, be they pedestrians (partiers) or bars. Residents are given the lowest priority over
other interests, like bar owners. The only explanation seems to be that the people who are supposed
to enforce the residents interests are being paid off. The City Council passed a so called "noise"
law that did almost nothing to address the biggest sources of noise generated in the city:
1) unnecessary noise caused by pedestrians (partiers) or bar patrons after 10PM, 2) loud motorcycles
with noise amplifiers, 3) garbage trucks, and 4) cars esp. taxi cabs honking unnecessarily.
The problem was also exacerbated because the NYS Liquor Authority under the Pataki administration
"illegally" granted liquor licenses at the drop of a hat. They're not supposed to grant a liquor
license if a bar is within 500 feet of another bar, yet under Pataki, they granted at least 3 liquor
licenses on my block within 500 feet of 2 already existing bars, creating 5 bars less than 500 feet
of each other. (There are literally 3 bars lined up right next to each other, 1 across the street of
these 3 and another 1 skips a building but is lined up on the same side as the first 3 bars.)
Where is the SLA here? They should be taking back these "excess" liquor licenses, starting with the
worst offending bars.

I personally think an organized effort citywide by residents who share similar views regarding
unnecessary noise, is the only way to get something to happen here.
A "stink" needs to be made with the City Council, NYS SLA, and the community boards.
Question is: how does one get it off the ground?

Posted by: markh at June 1, 2008 12:47 AM

Well. The honey approach was a complete failure. The proprietor is nice and full of "yes's and no problem" patter. And sure enough the problem doesn't go away. I truly believe the police are on the take, considering the hundreds of complaints against this bar.

So we're going the official route. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if he gets fined and shut down. His total lack of respect for the people who live here warrants nothing less.

The problem with my requests is that he loses money by obliging them.

So we've organized a group and plan to attend next week's council meeting with the 84th .

Overall, I think a citywide initiative should be brought about exposing the weaknesses, loopholes and ineffectiveness of BBergs noise initiatives.

More on this later. Will keep all posted.

Posted by: TNails at June 14, 2008 4:09 PM

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April 25, 2008

BACK YARD BAR NOISE - SOLUTIONS

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