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March 12, 2008

Stinky Neighbor - Please help!

I own half a brownstone -- the upper half. The bottom half is owned by a person of retirement age that is, well, stinky. In the time I've lived here, I've never heard a vacuum cleaner or anything like it coming from downstairs. I've never seen a window open to ventilate the space in any way. When I've needed access to the back of the building, I need to go through this person's apartment, my eyes start to tear because the odor is so intense. Piles of clothes are strewn all over and the dust is thick as snow.

My motto is live and let live. As long as I don't know this person is there, I don't care. So that was the modus operandi until recently, where I performed a year-long gut renovation.

During the renovation, the odor from downstairs would leach into the construction space as the floors and walls were open and exposed for plumbing and electrical work. However, now although they're all closed, pressurized odoriferous air is leaching through any/every crack and crevice into my brand new living space. I'm at my wits end -- and as I've shouted about it bothering me, my neighbor (obviously overhearing my loud frustration) has decided to use some sort of potent air freshener (like carpet fresh-pet odor eliminator). Now we're inundated with the air freshener ingredient which has made the situation worse because I seem to be allergic to it. A week will then pass, the air freshener will fade and the stank odor will return.

I desperately need to solve this problem. What I can't understand is why the air coming from my neighbor's living space is under so much pressure to force its way through every crack and crevice into my place -- I mean it even comes through cracks in the floor, cracks in the staircase risers, gaps between kitchen cabinets and trim. It's crazy and it, literally, stinks!

How can I get relief other than 1) wearing a face mask, 2) telling my neighbor to pick up some new living space hygiene practices?

My idea is to put in some roof vents to let pressurized air from the inner wall spaces along the parapet walls to escape, thus lowering the inner wall air pressure and preventing so much leaching of air through the cracks/gaps in my living space floors and walls and cabinetry.

Any/all suggestions are welcome!

Thanks in advance!

-G

Comments

For starters please check that your neighbor doesn't use plug in air fresheners they are a fire hazzard.

Don't be suprised if the odor is not personally attached to your neighbor or her possessions.

It might be from a completely unexpected source.

How you check these things out I have no clue.

Posted by: Ysabelle at March 12, 2008 12:54 AM

You forgot your third and probably best option: exit the communal living situation and buy your own house. What do you expect from a coop or condo.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 2:54 AM

I know there is no obligation for you to do what I'm going to suggest, and it will cost you money, but it sounds to me like the situation you're living in may make it an acceptable option for you. You seem to infer from the air freshener presence that your neighbor is already aware of your discomfort and has an inclination to do at least something to "mitigate" it, so approaching him personally and suggesting this solution to him shouldn't be a big surprise to, or offend him. Offer to bring in and pay for one of those comprehensive cleaning services to thoroughly clean his place and maybe see if he'd be willing to let you arrange for his clothes to be laundered and cleaned. Of course, there's no guarantee that the same situation isn't going to manifest itself a few months down the road, even if he agrees to this, and you could well be faced with the expense of re-applying this solution. At least, if he accepts the option, you will know that you will have a window of time to try and sell your place (though I'm sure there will be those who will question the morality of foisting the problem onto a subsequent owner). It sounds like, right now, you wouldn't be able to find a buyer at all. Overall, this situation sounds like one of the best advertisements I've heard for not buying in a really small co-op or condo building.

Posted by: johnife at March 12, 2008 9:22 AM

The reason you are suffering more than you used to is likely to be that during renovations, you A) opened up new opportunities for the air to circulate internally and B) blocked the opportunity for the air to circulate out of the building. Any new penetrations between your common surfaces (floor/ceiling/walls) will obviously allow air to flow and any sort of vapor barriers that you introduced to the envelope will affect how it travels. If you already had negative pressure in your apartment (likely due to the chimney effect that would come from being on the top floor), trapping the air or altering its flow pattern would have a pronounced effect.

My suggestion would be to speak to the other party as johnife suggests. Eliminating the source will be your most cost effective option. However, if that is too uncomfortable for you, I'd get an MEP consult to see if there is a mechanical solution to your issue.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 10:20 AM

Placing vents on the roof might help. You also might try having an energy audit done accept instead of seeing where the outside air leaks in, you can see where the downstairs air leaks in. What they do is depressurize your space and then use a smoke pencil to see where the leaks come from.

Posted by: Left Hook at March 12, 2008 10:26 AM

You said floors were opened because of plumbing work. just curious, Did Mr Neighbor Complain during your months long renovation?

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 10:27 AM

ok so call me a sad sap, but it sounds to me like your neighbor needs help..if you choose to make this your problem, is of course your business, but its seems he/she is falling into a bad situation that effects lots of elderly people in the States. does he/she have children or friends that come to care for him/her? i'm not saying this should all fall on you just because of your proximity.. but i think john ife makes a good point. perhaps its not even a matter of money but rather of resources for your neighbor.. walk down there.. have an honest chat and do whatever you are comfortable with to help. and hope your neighbor karma comes back to you.. good luck.

Posted by: buckygirl23 at March 12, 2008 10:30 AM

Thanks for the many comments so far! Here are some answers to questions already asked:

First off, my neighbor is not Male. Outside of entering this person's living space, you would never know that this person lived this way. This person's appearance is very clean and well kept tot he "outside" world.

This person is not retired yet and is fully capable of taking care of herself and her living space. Financial means are unknown but this person does work a in respectable job in a financial institution.

I know I can confront this person, but ahead of that, I figured I could post to this "brownstone" community to see if there are any mechanical or construction related solutions to this problem (i.e., building vents, exhaust fans, etc.) that could be strategically installed.

I don't think it's my right to tell another person how to live in the property that they own. I can make suggestions, as it is a "shared" dwelling (co-op) and then this person can decide whether to make the necessary changes or not. I'm anticipating that little will be accomplished through the speaking route.

However regardless of this person's cooperation, I need to make this problem go away, as it is greatly effecting my home and family life.

Referrals to environmental/building air consultants or companies that handle these types of issues are greatly appreciated! Creative ideas to help relieve the air pressure coming from downstairs are also welcome!

-G

Posted by: goober at March 12, 2008 10:56 AM

Sometimes people have conditions, that get worse with age, which prevent them from detecting certain odors. Your neighbor might be cooking something, storing something, pets, plants, have a toxic mold, or have plumbing issues that create a smell that they are honestly unaware of. I honestly suggest trying to talk to them in a very open and civil manner to try to determine what's going on before putting a lot of money into an engineering solution.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 11:12 AM

I agree with Buckygirl.
Perhaps you can approach it something like this: "I know my renovation must have been annoying to you. It was noisy and created alot of dust. We are bringing in a post renovation cleaning service to take care of the remaining dust and chemical odors and would like to pay to have your apartment done as well since we know we put you out during those months."

Or....

You can be neighborly and invite her over one night. She lives in the same building, so shouldn't you try to be friendly?

Posted by: rh at March 12, 2008 11:22 AM

My building has a clause in the proprietary lease that specifically states no odors from cooking or other activities should bother the other units. Do you have this in your lease/coop agreement? If not, then you should consider getting it in there. Do you really live in a two unit arrangement? Small coops are great, but it's usually better to have a third (at least) to mitigage situations like this.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 11:39 AM

I think installing vents- etc. is the extreme response. I don't know your neighbor- but is a confrontation really necessary? From your early post- you say you've shouted in your own apt. and your neighbor must have heard you- and it sounds like your neighbor has tried to address it- but that all seems extremely passive to me.

Why not try and have a conversation with the woman? Like the other posts- invite her over (maybe to show her the new renovations?) and just be honest. I think if you honestly tell her that odors in your unit are making it difficult for you to enjoy your space- she may be open to try some solutions (without making personal accusations). I think the fact that she tried with the air freshner indicates she wants to help. I think if you do that- you can both try to find the cause- maybe small animals dead in a crawl/wall space? Something must be causing it and it may or may not be her.

I had a neighbor that banged on the roof because she thought I was making too much noise. I hated that. I wanted her to just talk to me about it instead of the constant banging. So after a while- I went down there. We had a conversation and it went well. No more banging. She had thought all these nasty things in her mind that I was making noise on purpose or just being a jerk- but I honestly told her that I'm not doing anything other than living- and that the building was going to pick up my noise but I agreed to do whatever I could (more carpets- padding under existing carpets- socks instead of shoes) and we have a great relationship after that.

I think talking airs out whatever misconceptions you have in each other's mind about the other person- and if that doesn't work- you know you did what you could- and then you can spend the time/money for a mechanical fix.

Posted by: panda10 at March 12, 2008 11:47 AM

From experience I do not believe this situation can be so easily resolved and is much more serious than most can comprehend unless they have lived through it or have been affected first hand. People who live like this are usually mentally ill and things get progressively worse with time. I would contact the City and possibly an attorney to review your options. Trust me, I am not overreacting. I was displaced from my home for months because of a similar situation and it was not only extremely stressful and inconvenient but also very expensive. All because the owner who lived in the condo unit beneath mine lived like an absolute pig and eventually cross-contamination occurred. This person also held a respectable job and was not elderly. You are entitled to a safe, healthy living environment and not at the expense of being neighborly. You can try talking to this person but I truly do not believe a simple neighborly chat will not change this person's behavior. You need to aggressively address this situation. Good luck.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 12:24 PM

I know someone who had this exact same problem with a neighbor. The smelly person was functional and had a good job, but was a hoarder and had a mental illness.

Hoarding is not tolerable and the city absolutely does see it as a hazard. FIRE hazard, health hazard, everything. So tell your coop board to get this person to clean her apartment within 30 days or you will report her to the Health Dept and the DOB. That is what the person I know did, and the smelly neighbor was forced to allow the Heath Dept enter and she had to allow her place to be cleaned.

Question - is the odor a cat litter odor? If so she's hoarding cats and you should call the ASPCA. Some crazy cat ladies actually kidnap people's pets on top of taking in strays, and it's awful, the poor things have to live in misery. While the hoarder thinks she's "saving" them.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 12:58 PM

Oh I just saw you are in a half and half owned brownstone. Who administers or manages this building, is it condo or coop or what? Contact the attorney or accountant who manages the building in lieu of a coop board since you don't have one.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 12:59 PM

Thanks for the continued comments! Here are some further answers to the continued questions asked:

Yes, this is a rare, two unit co-op. In fact, I am the President of the Co-op, and I have more property shares, than my neighbor, but that does little in my favor as voting rights are 50/50 -- a guaranteed stalemate. There might be some provisions in the articles of the co-op, or the proprietary lease to help my situation, but again, it doesn't guarantee anything in my favor. I want to solve the problem, not get into endless and expensive litigation, which only wastes money that could be spent on a mechanical or construction-based solution, which is what I sought ideas/recommendations for in making this posting in the first place.

As far as the smell coming from "living things in the floor/wall spaces". Because, in the past, I've needed to pass through this person's residence, I know the odors originate from there. We have had past and recent issues with mice and roaches coming from the common walls/floors dividing this building into our residences, but that was mitigated with sealing the openings, to the best of our ability (however, pressurized odoriferous air still finds a way in through finding another path of least resistance), and through having a regular exterminator service. Moreover, since we are in a row of attached buildings there is not 100% assurance that the mice/roach issues were originating from below. However, the odor is originating from below.

Pets? No, the neighbor hasn't any pets, so that's not to blame.

Mental Illness? I'm no authority, but I don't sense any sort of apparent issues, nor would I fault any condition at this point in time. This person generally keeps to herself and, again, to the outside world, seems ordinary, communicative and friendly. Delving into this issue about how one lives and why and any chance of mental illness would be getting very, very personal. I will not go there. Is it really any of my business? Again, I believe live and let live, and "out of sight, out of mind". When/if the odor situation is mitigated, with or without the involvement of this individual, is what I care about. How this person continues to live their live is none of my business.

Please keep the responses/suggestions coming...

-G

Posted by: goober at March 12, 2008 1:53 PM

I must say, goober, you have a very magnanimous attitude with respect to your situation. I hope you are able to maintain it when it comes time to sell and potential buyers inquire about the presence of a humming positive pressurization system or make the trip down to the garden to see the outdoor space amenity.

Posted by: johnife at March 12, 2008 2:12 PM

I used to live on Barrow street in a large building with a pretty crazy woman on the first floor. The smells were terrible. The building had been co-oped and she was a holdover rent stablized tenant. The management desperately wanted to do something about but couldn't. I think going to outside agencies is not the solution. You have to be able to work it out with the woman or move. You seem like a very reasonable polite person. I'd think you have to bite the bullet and tell your "neighbor to pick up some new living space hygiene practices?"

Posted by: Brooklynnative at March 12, 2008 3:31 PM

Considering all aspects of the situation and that there isn't a coop board or anyone else to help, the best first step is to tell her this:

"I'm sure this is embarrassing, I am reluctant to intrude on your personal life or space, but the smells from your apartment are entering mine and it is deteriorating my quality of life as well as my property value. I know home ownership can be overwhelming. I am happy to help you remedy the situation. I'll help you pay for a thorough cleaning. Whatever you decide, this must be taken care of because it is unfair for me to have to live this way."

Be firm and clear you know your rights, but also be sympathetic. I would put all that in writing in a dated letter, then follow up with talking to her about it. If she doesn't respond, or tells you go to hell, or makes promises but doesn't do anything then you will have to take steps with outside parties. But you'll need the letter to show you did try to talk to her and work it out between you two.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 4:51 PM

We have a similar problem, but live in a large Co-op building though. Older man, long time rental resident - just doesn't clean. Odors are in our hallway, but thankfully don't come into our apartment. He has been taken to court by they Co-op and was then forced to clean, but a few months later it smells again. We have called 311. They will only take an odor Health Department complaint if it is coming from an animal (feces, etc). Our neighbor does have a dog.
Our major complaint though is that we have had fleas for two years - bombed twice, use flea traps, vacuum every day, spray the hallway, etc. We don't have any pets!
We also mop the hallway, put air freshener, open the hall window to mitigate the odor.
We spoke with our neighbor about the issues, gave him flea medicine for his dog, roach traps, suggested he bomb his apartment. The man doesn't think he has any issues. We finally got him to admit he "might" have mice.
Right now he has been taken back to court and has been appointed a guardian...so there are obviously mental issues.
We also have a crazy cat lady right down the hall with 80+ cats and 2 large dogs. She owns her place. We have reported her to the health department and they have inspected. Unfortunately, since the conditions aren't horrible - dead cats, feces, etc. They didn't really do anything, but continue to monitor her. The ASPCA also doesn't enforce for number of cats, only if they are mistreated. She definitely has a strong animal farm type odor too. We have spoken to her about possibly reducing her numbers and to stop feeding feral cats around the building...but she didn't take this suggestion very well...
We live in a "pet friendly" building. It does have a rule about notifying the Management to get approval for animals....but no one enforces the rule and there is no set number or type of animal requirements.
Are there attorneys that focus on quality of life issues in NYC? Are there even any grounds for suing the Co-op / resident to get things moving?....At this point though I think we are just better off moving since these issues have been ongoing for so long, we have an ineffective and unsympathetic Co-op board and our Management company is very shady (also sponsor with majority shares). Help!

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 5:23 PM

Perhaps your neighbor is also suffering from the stench... could be rodents have died inside the floors and walls, since you mentioned that your building had an infestation of roaches and mice.

Your renovation most likely stirred up the rodent activity and again, after extermination services, the mice crawled off and died inside floors and walls.

If that's the case, in a month or so, the odors will diminish.

I would think that you definitely would have noted an awful stench when viewing your present unit prior to purchase if it were truly coming from your neighbor's unit.

Politely approach your neighbor, and ask her if she has noticed the awful smell... explain how it's affecting your quality of life... maybe she thinks it's coming from your place! :)

Try the conservative approach first before you jump into huge expenses unnecessarily.

Posted by: bren at March 12, 2008 5:59 PM

If you can befriend your neighbor and slowly approach the issue. You don't want to rush into it and end up with a noise situation as well.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 6:23 PM

This is a pretty involved idea...
Think in terms of positive and negative air pressure. Air will move to the lowest pressure area in a building. So for example if you open a window or vent in your apartment to "air out the stink" you may actually be letting air pressure out of your apt. This means that air from downstairs may come up through the floor and walls from your neighbor.
On the other hand if you had an intake fan bringing air into your apt it may give you a positive pressure, thusly not drawing as much air from downstair. To take this a step farther if you could (covertly, or not) put a fan out take fan from the neighbors place, decreasing their pressure even further, giving the air less reason to escape to your apt.
Kinda bizarre I know, it may not even work, but an idea.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 6:26 PM

^^^
Yeah, that's what I was implying with my "positive pressurization" comment. But you're right, it's pretty involved. You would have to introduce some means of heating or cooling the outside air you're bringing in during the winter and summer. Could get REAL expensive in terms of both capital and running costs.

Posted by: johnife at March 12, 2008 6:53 PM

Are you sure she didn't have a husband nobody has seen in a while?

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 7:06 PM

Here's some more follow up feedback:

No, these odor's aren't a recent issue that's just started. It's been ongoing for months and months and months. It's just come to a head and we need to deal with it, because it seems to be getting worse.

Building Air flow was definitely altered when the renovation was done. Before the renovation, we did smell the odor, but it wasn't as potent and was only in one area of the living space.

Of course when my neighbor cooks, it exasperates the odor issue. We get inundated with the cooking fumes for hours, on top of the normal odor issue. It can be quite disturbing when you're experiencing cooking odors of someone else's that simply aren't pleasant. We've basically stopped entertaining guests at our place because it's so offensive.

Yes, you are right about the air pressure. Opening our windows does cause even more odor to be brought through the cracks/gaps floor and walls, even though we feel we are think we are helping ourselves by "airing out" our living space.

My neighbor has all the windows in her living space closed all the time. Thus, my living space become the "exhaust" for my neighbors odors.

We will end up confronting my neighbor in some way but, again, that'll probably have the limited utility that others have experienced and commented about. You really can't teach an old dog new tricks, so to speak. I'm still betting on the answer to be better sealing of the floors and walls, or replacement of the old parquet floors with something more tongue and groove and vents in the roof to make that the lowest pressure avenue for inner-wall, inner floor air.

Yes, it'll cost money. We're not thinking it won't, like all 1883 buildings that have had previous owner renovations in disrepair, we've needed to fix and bring up-to-date lots of other things already. We wouldn't have bought into a dwelling like this if we couldn't commit capital to it.

Any more suggestions?

-G

Posted by: goober at March 12, 2008 7:52 PM

offer to buy her out. you'd end up owning the entire building and you can rent out her apartment after you've fumigated.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 8:40 PM

I had a problem with a smell in my place, it turned out to be a vent stack that stopped short of the roof, capped it and the smell went away.

Take some humidity readings, get a laser style non-contact thermometer, and a small anemometer from graingers and do some enviro sleuthing. Maybe you will find that hidden source of incoming stinky air.

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 10:53 PM

Sounds like your neighbor may be a hoarder. This is a psycological condition that is not unusual and often spirals out of control after years of being hidden from most people in the world. The website below has a full list of resources related to hoarding.

http://www.childrenofhoarders.com/NY.php

Cornell Medical College also has medicare mental health providers that specialize in hoarding. Contact them explain your problem and see what they suggest

Posted by: guest at March 12, 2008 11:02 PM

I hate to sound so negative and pessimistic but the only way to deal with this problem is by addressing and eliminating the source of the problem. Installing barriers and vents will only slow down the inevitable which will eventually need to be dealt with. I would take the advice of 4:51 and if that does not work call the Health Department, the City and any and all governmental agencies telling them that environmental issues are involved and you think this person might have a mental illness. Let them deal with her. Environmental concerns and mice/roach infestation cannot and should not be ignored. Sooner or later your area will become infested and environmentally unsafe no matter how many barriers and/or vents you construct and install. This concerns your health, quality of life and yes a major investment. The person who lived beneath me also appeared very normal in public but she still had a mental illness that allowed her to destroy her home and mine by living the way she chose to live. Start to seriously think of ways to protect your health and home and not be so worried about causing trouble with this neighbor. I find it extremely strange that you are willing to go to such lengths and incur such costs to allow this person to continue to destroy your home, quality of life, investment and possibly health. I'm sorry but I think there's much more to the story than you are telling. Is this neighbor a relative? Also, what happens when this problem eventually spreads to the home next to yours, which it will in time. Do you think at that point, those homeowners will not hold you responsible in some way also?

Posted by: guest at March 13, 2008 1:26 AM

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March 12, 2008

Stinky Neighbor - Please help!

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