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March 1, 2008
Renovation team - what's most cost-effective without sacrificing quality?
We are considering purchasing a small brownstone which needs extensive renovation and wonder how to assemble the best team for the work given our tight budget. We have already brought 2 architects, a designer, and a contractor to the house, plus have talked to several others. So far, all the bids are in the range of 350-500K which is of course a large range but it seems to depend on the kind of team we use and finishes we select. While economizing with finishes seems straightforward, saving on our renovation team is more confusing. The most expensive way to go is to have the architect project manage the whole thing plus work with us to select all the finishes - this evidently will add at least 16-18% to construction costs (or $70K on 400K of construction costs). Another way to go is to have the architect do drawings only to file with DOB, then trust the contractor to execute everything. Problem is, both my husband and I have demanding jobs and small kids and are worried about our ability to really supervise the GC. A designer we worked with on a smaller job has offered to project manage for us, as well as help us select finishes - but this could add up to a lot of fees too - perhaps as much as 30K if not more. For budget reasons, I'm tempted to just trust the GC but also don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, since I saw how great the designer was when we did the small job for us - she saved us money by finding great, economical choices, negotiating discounts on products, catching GC errors, etc. - plus she definitely increased value of our apt. If we were handier or less busy, we would be better equipped to supervise GC. So one question is: are there GC's out there who are really great and will advocate for you (as opposed to their workers, and cut corners on your job)? If so, I'd love their names! Or, do people think it's foolish NOT to have an architect and/or designer supervise the job? If we do go with the designer, our other worry is that, even though her hourly rate is significantly less than an architect, she does not have as much experience as an architect so I'm not sure she'll be as efficient. But others tell me that renovating these small brownstones is pretty straightforward and a fancy architect is overkill. Any advice greatly appreciated...
Comments
If you think 350 - 500 is a large range, wait until the project starts. Whatever the budget is, the final cost will be double and take twice as long - at least. A cost of 30k will not even be a rounding error.
Posted by: guest at March 1, 2008 3:44 PM
I don't think you should trust the GC. Although, to be fair, it really depends upon the nature of the GC - most in my experience are what their title is, simply contractors; i.e., not designers, but guys who can get the fundamentals right, like electricity, plumbing, etc., as opposed to having a facile understanding of finishings, cabinetry design (they could hire a carpenter to execute on the design, but not design themselves). I think you thereofre need either the architect or the designer to step in, as you will be unable to supervise and appear to be gut renovating an entire house which is a huge project (even though the house is "small"!). I would go with the architect as you save with economies of scale. It's not like you are simply replacing your bathroom - you are likely making structural adjustments so why not get the architect's input on design generally? All things being equal and to the extent your architect has demonstrated design skills through prior like projects (in other words, if you don't prefer your designer's style to the architect's), I would take the architect up on it and suck up the cost. You only do this once ... usually. Good luck ! :) Archiefina
Posted by: guest at March 1, 2008 7:18 PM
The numbers you have received are a complete guess. You need to hire an architect and get formal estimates from a General Contractor to do most (if not all) of the work. You should select a few key items to pull out of the contractors bid if you want to save some money, but not "by trade". For example, don't just pull the electrical out. You'll have coordination nightmares. Instead, pull out something like the kitchen cabinets or pull all of the appliances and plumbing fixtures out of his scope and order them (or have your architect order them) yourselves. You'll save on the GC mark up costs.
Good GC's are out there, but they cost alot of money. And you don't necessarily need to go with a "fancy" architect. But honestly their fee sounds spot on. It's not "Manhattan" prices, but it's not a bargain either.
But...my best advise would be, if you can't afford to do this the right way and you fear you'll put your own sanity, marriage, kids in danger; maybe you shouldn't buy this place. Move the suburbs, or find a big apartment that doesn't need as much work done. If you go cheap on this, you'll be back here blogging about how your nightmare renovation is still not complete in the middle of 2009.
Posted by: guest at March 1, 2008 9:08 PM
I just finished a very similar job and I can tell you that it was very, very time-intensive, especially at the last, finishing stages. There are just too many subjective decisions that a GC can't be entrusted with; aesthetic, personal decisions that are more about your likes and lifestyle. It's simply not his forte, or his responsibility. He's specialty is more structural and to make things happen on time and on budget.
Perhaps you can set up something so that your designer comes in at the finishing stage. Even before that, there's plenty to weigh in on, but that might be a smart financial compromise.
The suggestion of making sure your architect has the same taste in finishings is a fantastic one; I was simply blown away by how little my architect did at the finishing stage and then I realized I was better off, because we didn't see things the same way. Their experience was much more in the line of getting the building up well.
Good luck!
Posted by: guest at March 1, 2008 10:02 PM
10:02 - yes, bringing our designer in at the end is one thought, and maybe having her consult along the way to point out detail-oriented issues i.e. molding/cabinetry issues. We of course would also talk to architects since I do think, in an ideal world, it would be best to find an architect who could do both so that it's "one-stop-shopping" but it may be hard to find an architect who can do this job affordably who shares our aesthetic as much as the designer (who is also much cheaper than an architect) - so in that case, splitting the job to have the architect do the heavy lifting, and the designer work on the finishes/details might make sense.
Regarding price and timeline, can you share what you experienced? The house we're looking at is 16.5 x 40, 3 floors. It would be especially helpful to hear from someone who has just done this kind of renovation the ballpark range of costs and time required. Thanks!
Posted by: housesearcher at March 1, 2008 10:23 PM
I didn't have a designer so I can't really comment about that. I didn't even realize designers would get involved in anything but million dollar + renos.
Anyway, I can't imagine totally trusting my architect or GC to do the daily supervision. It was my home and my money and no one could possibly be more motivated in getting it right for the most reasonable price than me.
If you have the extra room in the budget, I think it would be a great idea to have another set of eyes but I wouldn't recommend replacing yours.
PS: Not all jobs have to cost 2x as much or take 2x as long. If you are smart in your budgetting and on top of all decisions and are lucky, you can finish on budget and time.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at March 1, 2008 10:43 PM
There are definitely architects that wokrk for lower %.
Also, doesn't the design/build model aleviate some of your concerns in that the designer, architect, GC all part of same business?
Posted by: guest at March 1, 2008 11:17 PM
Thank you, Mrs. Limestone for pointing out that not all jobs needs to be 2x as expensive/long. Many other people have told me this and I always find it upsetting when others spread these kinds of fears. We did renovations on our apt and they were well within budget and did not take too long (though that was a much smaller job). Still, we stuck to our decisions, made good choices of finishes, and were firm with our contractor. We hope to do the same with this house, though realistically, we realize there are way more unknowns so we are planning to build a contingency into our budget and make sure we can afford the job *with* the contingency.
We would never *replace* our own eyes, but the reality is our eyes will frequently be stuck in the office or with our kids, and we learned in the apt renovations that sometimes decisions can't wait - hence the need for a project manager, esp since there are a lot of little but crucial decisions that constantly come up. We are prepared to devote a huge amount of attention to this, but we simply cannot quit our jobs so that makes availability a lot more limited. I work from home 2 days/week so at least will be be available those days, but will sometimes have my kids - so we need someone else we trust to project manage on daily basis. We will certainly interview a range of architects, including some who may charge smaller % fees, but we want to avoid being penny-wise and pound foolish - that is, we want an architect experienced enough to be efficient and avoid mistakes. Luckily, our designer wants to be on this job at whatever level so I think she'll be flexible about what stage she's brought in at - we'd love to have her there for the whole thing but this might be an unaffordable luxury if it's more efficient for the architect to do the whole thing, in which case designer might just be consultant at the end.
Re: design/build firms - I've heard of the one in Clinton Hill - what other ones do people recommend? And what are the downsides to using design/build firms?
Posted by: housesearcher at March 1, 2008 11:48 PM
You lose objectivity with design build. Better to have independent architect overseeing independent contractor, otherwise you are at risk of a conflict of interest. I wasn't hugely impressed with the Clinton Hill firm to be honest, or with the concept as a whole, and went the architect route.
Posted by: guest at March 2, 2008 12:09 PM
We are working with a very good architect and good GC, but would never trust the GC to oversee the work, especially if you have a demanding job and small kids and can't be around all the time. The work happens during the day, while you are away and half the time you may not even know what to look for when you come home. And then a wall is closed and who knows what is inside?? Everybody wants to save money, but in the end you will suffer the sub par work that will certainly result. The GC is going to make the profit, so it is a conflict for him to try to police himself - forget about it as they say in BK
Posted by: guest at March 2, 2008 12:50 PM
We did our first renovation with only a GC. (The architect drew simple plans and filed them and that was all.) However, after asking everyone we knew for recommendations for a contractor, we ended up going with someone who wasn't the cheapest, would not negotiate his prices, but who would complete the job decently on time for the price promised. He was exactly as advertised. 7 years ago we only spent a bit over $100,000 to duplex and gut renovate 2 floors of a brownstone (including build a bathroom where one didn't exist) and do a cosmetic renovation of a tenant apt. and completely rewire 3 floors. It seems crazy that we did all that for that price with very little pain. The worst was we chose all our own finishes and I found that to be a bit stressful in having to make so many decisions about paint color, faucets, tiles, kitchen cabinets, at the same time, but the actual construction was pretty stress-free.
That being said, our renovation would probably never pass muster with someone looking for a high end renovation. It's not nearly as put together as Mrs. Limestone's house, which we love. But we were very satisfied with the results, and got pretty much what we wanted from the renovation.
So, if you are not looking for fancy cabinetry and built-ins, but simply looking for someone to build the specs the architect designs, you can probably go with only a GC as long as it's someone with a reputation for doing good work on time. But if you do want a more designed home, and don't have time to put in yourself, you will need some help from an architect, project manager, or designer.
Posted by: guest at March 2, 2008 6:12 PM
12:09 "I wasn't hugely impressed with the Clinton Hill firm to be honest"
Which firm? Why weren't you impressed? If you have info/opinion it might help me cross someone off my list.
Posted by: guest at March 2, 2008 9:53 PM
How often do your architects show up? They aren't going to be on site checking the work every day. Get a sitter and go check yourself. Your husband in the morning and you in the evening or vice versa.
Posted by: guest at March 2, 2008 9:59 PM
Can you say who your designer is? We are looking for one as well...
Thanks!
Posted by: guest at March 3, 2008 2:08 AM
One way to split the difference is to use your architect to supervise the GC for the structural stuff, but bring in a designer for the finish. You could agree on a fixed price for drawings, filings and a fixed amount of visits by the architect. If more visits are needed, tehn you can pay for those by the hour, but only use the architect for what you need.
When we interviewed architects, the ones that really knew design were too deferential to the GC on construction quality, and the ones that knew how to build did not have a keen eye for finish details. You will go crazy trying to find a one-stop-shopping architect you can afford.
I would err on the side of making sure you have an architect who can independently and expertly oversee the major construction portions of the job as your advocate and make sure big corners are not cut.
Posted by: slopefarm at March 3, 2008 10:05 AM
You really do have several options. If you choose to hire an architect only for drawings, you need to make sure they are complete, detailed construction drawings with elevations, scope and specs that can be used to complete your project. Otherwise you will be paying the contractor extra money to do what an architect can do better. You may also make an arrangement with your architect for an hourly fee after drawings are completed so you can call on them as needed during the construction phase. Yes, there are great contractors who will advocate for their clients. They will not be your cheapest bid, but you will get quality, on time work with few surprises. Any good contractor gets most of their work from word of mouth, so they have an incentive to please their clients. One I can recommend is Ambiance Improvement 917-907-3030. If you do not trust your contractor, hire the architect to supervise the work. Fully check references of both architect and contractor and ask to see some of their work. Regarding the designer, if she is ot that experienced I would not recommend spending money to have her supervise the construction. But it may be worth it to enlist her assistance in choosing the finishes, appliances and so forth. You save money in construction by being decisive and keeping the schedule moving forward. Good luck.
Posted by: guest at March 3, 2008 5:11 PM
If you can't trust your GC, all hope is lost.
The Arch has other clients and obligations, and alot happens (and moves to the next step) without anyone reviewing it. A good contractor is critical to a quality product--and if you can't believe what your contractor tells you, it's going to be rough sledding.
Posted by: bugleg at March 3, 2008 7:53 PM
I would try to utilize both the GC and the architect. I would also take the advice of posters who tell you to keep a watchful eye yourself. You'll know better than anyone if something doesn't seem right. Ask lots of questions, and don't be intimidated. But also try to learn something about the trades and the sequence in which things are done. It's also helpful to learn the nomenclature of construction, and your GC will be impressed if you can correctly point out studs, joists, headers, soil stacks, GFI receptacles and the like. They'll also appreciate you more if you don't bust their %^&*s when things go wrong that aren't their fault. And believe me, problems can arise when ignorant and arrogant homeowners don't understand that their 100 year-old house is almost guaranteed to have some hidden issues that will be discovered along the way.
Have the architect inspect work and the house at crucial stages, like right after demolition is complete and then after any structural changes are made, as well as right after the rough plumbing and electrical are done. Think of the architect as your "quality control" with these issues, which are much easier to deal with when the walls and floors are still opened up.
You absolutely must trust the GC too, but usually they have framers and drywallers and other subs working for them, so it's smart for all parties to know that the architect will be looking at the work. Never cut corners, and always insist that all work is done to building codes. Good luck, and try to enjoy it. I find renovation to be exhilarating...There is even a huge book I could recommend here, great for the lay person and weekend warrior, even pros, really...I love this book, I've given it to friends as a gift in the past.
http://www.amazon.com/Renovation-Complete-Guide-Updated-2nd/dp/0806997753
Posted by: guest at March 4, 2008 4:19 PM
There are people known as interior architects who do exactly what you describe. These are individuals who have formal architectural training so they can advise you on the intricacies of walls that can be removed, built, plumbing (re-)routing, etc., but they also have design acumen and cn advise on finishes and fixtures. My good friend Henry Mitchell is one such person. He's currently renovating his own home, so I can't speak for his schedule. You can check out some of his work at hmia.net. He doesn't do alot of before and after photos, but I'm sure he can show you his portfolio.
I have actually hired Henry for a previous project and he did an amazing job. As my work travel schedule is crazy, it was helpful to have some one oversee contractors perform the heavy duty work, and still maintain the delicate design detail. Tell him Chris Montgomery referred you.
Posted by: guest at March 4, 2008 4:34 PM
The reason you guys bash contractors is the only thing you are looking for is the low bid guy. There are contractors who are conscientious, care about how you want the work done, have great pride and love for the work they do, and are not just watching their profit margin. The trick is you have to be ready to pay for it. Most of the posters on this site just want to bitch how the unlicensed, uninsured, guy that charged 1/3 of what the other contractor wanted screwed up their job.
Posted by: guest at March 5, 2008 12:52 AM
We are coming to the end (hopefully) of a fairly large scale renovation of our over 100 year old three story house. We started with the architect, and were worried about oversight, so signed on for him to be project manager. Looking back, as we really trust our GC, this turned out not to be the best investment, as the architect comes by once in a while to check things out. He has been more helpful in the design phase, and, yes, you will be asked for a lot of design details (paint color, tiles, cabinet, cabinet knobs, stain color . . .) Be prepared for some unpleasant surprises in these old houses, that bit us in the ass, added a lot of cost and time.
I'd be happy to recommend our GC, who was onsite every day, communicates quite well with us, and was open and honest from day one with any problems that came up. His bid was middle range and we thought to be fair. You can email me at mholden0 at lycos dot com
Posted by: guest at March 5, 2008 11:48 AM
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