To Burn or Not To Burn

No way would I let a tenant use a fireplace unless it was previously checked and approved. Do you charge them higher rent for an apt with a working fireplace? Even decorative fireplaces add "charm" for which you can charge higher rent. Is it even supposed to be a wood burning fireplace? I'd say no way and probably throw them out for dangerously presumptive risk to my property.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 11:57 AM

Brick it up. Not worth the risk. Tenants don't care. If there's a fire, they will just move and you are stuck with all the pain.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 11:58 AM

No way would I let a tenant use a fireplace, that's crazy

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 12:06 PM

The idea of throwing out tenants is pretty far fetched. Even without a lease they have strong rights. If they have a lease and the fireplace wasn't addressed then you need to discuss the situation with them; you're not in the legal right.

If you didn't intend for fires to be built the lease needs to specify that. You say you hardly use yours - implying that you have built a fire. If so, you must maintain the chimney. This is the largest cause of fireplace fires - chimneys not being properly cleaned.

As for fire safety, there are some basics. Do you have smoke alarms working properly on all floors? Do you have fire insurance?

The fire department would be a good resource for you to help determine what is a true risk and what isn't.

As to the fireplace functioning, the tenants are using it and so it needs inspecting. I find the this old house website always helpful in understanding the basics of home maintenance.

Are these your only tenants? If not, do the others have fireplaces?

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 12:36 PM

I can't believe how far this tenants rights crap goes. It's your house! Why on earth are you pussy footing around this. Regardless of whether the danger is real or imagined, if you would ever have a worried thought about it why allow it? Just say no. If they don't like it, they are allowed to rent somewhere else or, god forbid, pony up the cash and buy there own damn house with a fireplace.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 12:37 PM

Their apartment obviously has a wood-burning fireplace that draws, or they wouldn't have been able to get a fire going. You say you "hardly" use your fireplace, but that indicates that you DO use it.

So, for both your and your tenants sake, get your chimney cleaned by a good chimney cleaner, and inspected by someone who knows their stuff, ASAP It is the ashy stuff that collects on chimney walls when they aren't cleaned annually (if fireplaces are used) that causes fires from fireplace fires - it isn't generally the fire getting out of the fireplace into the apartment. You need to keep the chimney in good repair and have it cleaned annually.

Yes, you could close up the fireplace in their apartment, but why would you, if it works? You'd be reducing the value of your rental property. You use your fireplace, so you really need to go through having the chimney cleaned and inspected annually anyway - so their using theirs isn't an added expense.

It seems rather hypocritical to me to have a wood burning fireplace in their apartment and to tell them they can't use it (because you are worried) even though you use yours - rather than to take your homeowner responsibilities seriously and clean and inspect your chimney regularly - which is your responsibility to do anyway, for everyone in the building's safely (not to mention your neighbors in adjoining buildings) since you DO use your fireplace.

If you are concerned that they aren't responsible enough to keep sparks off the rug, suggest they pull the rug aside to prevent this when they light fires. But really, if you don't think they can handle that, then you shouldn't be renting to them anyway. Most home fires (still, in this day and age, despite the fact that we don't use them for our basic light source anymore) are started by candles. Yes, candles. So, hopefully you rent to people who seem smart enough not to leave candles unattended by curtains and bedding. You could say "no candles," but then, like providing a wood-burning fireplace and saying "no fires," there'd be no way to enforce it, other than not renting to stupid people, and taking your homeowner responsibilities seriously enough to install a lot of fire alarms (the corollary here is cleaning and inspecting your chimney, in case you didn't get that), and then hoping the combination of their smarts, your smarts in picking smart people to share your home with, and your taking all logical prevention steps, work - that's all we do about every risk we take in life anyway.

And if you are still concerned that they aren't smart enough, when you ask them to move the shag rug when they have fires, you can also tell them never to leave a candle burning unattended, as they cause most house fires, and explain to them that grease or oil can catch fire if you cover a pan with something frying in it (I knew someone who caused a kitchen fire this way in her house, as she never learned this from her mother as I did), and that they should never try to heat their home with a gas oven when it is cold, and that they should never, never have one of those tall halogen torchiere floor lamps, as they frequently cause fires, and that they should not use space heaters with exposed coils - and everything else that can cause house fires - hell, find a home good fire prevention brochure and ask them to read it - and read it yourself - then you bring their knowledge level and yours up to past where yours now (as it doesn't appear that you know how to keep your chimney safe right now.)

Good luck. Start with googling up chimneys and educating yourself. And then, focus on making sure your electricity is safe - the other major cause of house fires, especially in old houses where owners neglect to check up on really old wiring.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 12:42 PM

12:42 way to keep it brief and to the point.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 1:22 PM

Yeah, I know, 12:36 (a similar-minded person, obviously) did most of it with far less words, but as I was writing when they posted, I didn't see that post before I posted.

Still, brief can mean ill-informed - it takes information (which involves words) to prevent house fires. And the OP seemed clueless about chimney fires to me, which is stupid for someone who makes fires in their fireplace.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 1:33 PM

12:42 - I think you did a great job of addressing the main points - fire safety has many aspects and rent apartments in your home to people you trust.

The National Fire Protection Association has information on fire likelihood and steps to prevent fire broken down by causes (e.g., dryers, candles, etc).

http://tinyurl.com/2xtc7l (the original link is very long).

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 1:33 PM

"Tenants don't care. If there's a fire, they will just move and you are stuck with all the pain."

i gotta say, this is pretty elitist and insensitive.

i am not a renter, but i am 99% sure that an apartment fire in which someone lost their home and most of their possessions would be EXTREMELY traumatic and life alterting.

just because they are on a lease and not a mortgage doesn't mean someone would simply "not care" if their home burned down.

even if you rent, it's still your home.

you are acting like all renters are basically bums, and would just shuffle off and live under a bridge.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 1:46 PM

Yes, 1:46, you are right. And I can bet that, with rents being what they are, the OP's renters are not anyting like bums, but are likely paying a hefty rent, and working hard to earn it.

Anyone notice that according to the OP, they aren't exactly getting sufficient heat for that rent either? And OP doesn't want them to make a fire in the fireplace....

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 1:56 PM

OP, you own the place, you make the rules. If the tenant does not like it, she can move. Your safety is the most important issue.

Add a clause to the lease about not using the fireplace so that there are no "misunderstandings".

I don't buy that there is a rent differential for a working vs non-working fireplace.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 3:01 PM

OP, I'm confused. Your tenant has no lease? She is an existing tenant from the previous owner? How did it come to pass that she still lives in the apartment?

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 3:06 PM

Get her out. She sounds like she is a bum. She has no lease. She has no right to your property regardless if some bleeding heart here thinks it's her home too. She does have the right to go buy her own place or find a landlord who will let her risk their property.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 3:08 PM

Slopefarm has it right.

OTOH, if there is no lease, you should prepare one right away and include in the lease that the fireplace in question is not to be used and is non-functional. An annual lease should not be a big deal.

If the tenant wants to continue use of the firepalce, you can negotiate terms of use appropriately and in the meantime ask her not to use pending an inspection and cleaning.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 4:33 PM

3:08, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 5:02 PM

5:02. I know exactly what I am talking about. Without a lease, a month to month tenant can be kicked out easily and this one should be. There are plenty of renters out there. The OP did not pick this one, clearly does not like her, and shouldn't be subjected to her idiotic behavior.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 5:19 PM

wow, this is a difficult one. First, I would talk to them and tell them your concerns as one mentioned above that the fireplace has not been cleaned out and along with your house, all of their stuff could be burned and they might be at risk as well. Second, I would immediately get them under a lease that stipulates they do not use the fireplace. I also have small fire extinguishers in my hallways so the tenants know they are there. all of my smoke detectors are wired into the electic so there is no worries if the batteries die and the tenant does not replace the battery. There is a backup battery which beeps and we do replace that.

I have wonderful tenants which I did choose myself with phone calls to their last two landlords, their bosses and full credit checks. I do not believe all tenants are irresponsible and believe if you go into renting thinking everyone is out to get you, well then, you will get what you are expecting. I say take all possible precautions and protect yourself and be respectful to them as you would be to anyone else.

Finally, they certainly deserve decent heat, and you will have a better relationship if they are not cold.

best of luck.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 10:39 PM

No, actually, this is not a difficult one, at all.

Your dipshit tenant is dragging dried, combustible wood into your building and lighting it on fire, without your knowledge or consent? Hello?!

I love fireplaces. I've gone to lots of expense to convert mine to wood-burning. It's a wonderful amenity. And if you advertised your rental as having a WBF, then of course your tenant should expect to be able to spark one up.

But if not, you're crazy to allow some random asshole to light shit on fire in your building. And the poster who wrote that you are "elitist and insensitive" for feeling this way is a jackass.

Posted by: guest at February 26, 2008 2:33 AM

I don't understand the hand wringing. No thoughtful tenant would use a wbf without checking first with the landlord. They've blown a lot of goodwill and demonstrated their lack of responsibility. Now you must do what you should have done when you first got the house which is to tell them that they cannot burn a fire. If you are worried they may not cooperate, call in a chimney mason to examine the firebox, flue and chimney. Then tell them why it's unsafe and have them sign a rider to the lease. And if you're not prepared to write them a lease, perhaps you don't want them as tenants. While I bend over backwards to accomodate our tenant's needs and keep her apt well-maintained, I couldn't accept a situation like the one you describe.

Posted by: guest at February 26, 2008 1:45 PM

1:45 is right in every respect but one -- it's perfectly reasonable for the tenant to use the fireplace without checking with the new landlord if the tenant had previously done so with the prior landlord. The tenant would not be privy to the information transferred betweent he first and second LLs.

Why not get a lease and have everything spelled out.

Posted by: guest at February 26, 2008 3:12 PM

First, if you leave an open, wood-burning fireplace in an apartment, don't expect a tenant not to use it.

Some tenants will ask first; some will assume that if it is there, it works and has been maintained. Do you expect your tenant to ask if the range is safe, or is a fire hazard, before using it? Or if the shower pan leaks into the apartment below before taking a shower? No - the correct general assumption is that if it is there, it has been maintained in working order.

I would never expect a lease rider to actually stop someone from using an open fireplace. Your basic concern here is not having a fire from an unmaintained chimney; it isn't having a piece of paper that says they shoudln't have done so after the fact. I am an attorney, so I know what the lease rider will get you - likely nothing. It won't address your basic safety concern.

I may be in the minority here, but I think it is the landlord's responsibility (and would only be in the landlord's best interest) to make the fireplace safe. That means cleaning and repairing the chimney if it is to be left open and potentially usable, or closing it up (there are are less permanent methods than brick, if the landlord prefers) so it can't be used.

Also, I don't get why this landlord didn't inspect the chimney to find out if it was workable, despite what the seller said, and despite that fact that the new owner kept the previous tenant. Likely the tenant has been using it for years, as have tenants before. And the previous landlord probably never cleaned the chimney.

Posted by: guest at February 26, 2008 3:23 PM

You could have also gone after the insurance company - many people have to sue them to get the coverage they have purchased.

And it wasn't the tenants you should have gone after - it is the owner of the house next door, who likely had insurance to cover damage to other property caused by their house.

The tenants were the last people I'd have looked to for payment. Next time, get some legal advice.

Understand you were concerned with a sick relative - so accept that and let it go - we all have to make choices about how to spend our time and what to focus on. You chose to deal with your grandmother's illness (not a bad choice) - so just forget it now.

Posted by: guest at February 27, 2008 12:13 AM