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February 14, 2008
Throw a log on the fire: two fireplaces renovated
We restored two fireplaces last month, but I finally am getting around to posting the pics.
To give you some orientation: There are two chimneys with three flues each in our three story house. We tackled the front chimney which vents the boiler through one of the flues (which was relined). The parlor FP above it was restored and it's flue was relined to burn wood. The bedroom FP above that was restored to a gel-burning FP. The mantels, surrounds and hearthstones were also reset or replaced where missing.
I had been warned by other brownstoners that it would be messy. And it was! Think of it as surgery on the house. Centuries of soot and a bunch of guys with jackhammers. But, it took only five days, although my partner decamped with the dog to his mother's house, while I huddled in the two rooms that were dust free.
The finished products are more than worth it. The wood burning fireplace drafts just perfectly: not a wisp of smoke even on Sunday when we had those strong winds.
Here is the link to the pics:
http://www.flickr.com/gp/15516153@N02/a63B5C
If you watch it as a slideshow, make sure you click on the 'i' for descriptions and titles (all pics have them).
Thanks to the brownstoners who helped with my questions about FP restorations.
Enjoy!
Comments
Who was your contractor?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:31 PM
Can you ballpark the job cost for us? We're about to buy a house with four sealed fireplaces and will be embarking on this as well.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:36 PM
Manny LaSalle. 917-292-1825.
Did a great job. I can give details if anyone wants them.
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 12:37 PM
Thanks for putting in the time posting. This helps me think about what I want to do in a place I'm considering buying. Cost would help too.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:39 PM
For 12:36:
1 wbfp + relining boiler flue came to 6.5 K
He threw in doing the bedroom FP and charged $100 extra for resetting the bedroom mantel. I bought the slate mantle slab myself.
He took me to see one of his jobs in a brownstone in Bed-Stuy before we started. I liked it and then found he'd done work for quite a few neighbors who all seemed to have no problems with him. Also based on the opinions of other posters here, I decided to go with him, although we had got some other cheaper quotes. I just wanted the job done right, and did NOT want a smoky FP.
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 12:45 PM
If you do not want to go the whole wbfp shebang, really look into gel inserts/ logs/ FPs if your fireboxes are not sealed up. That is the one in the pic above, and it has very realistic flames that are not fixed like some gas inserts and it also crackles. And it is the easiest thing to put in. Just buy it and place it in the firebox.
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 12:48 PM
I see you don't have fir bricks in the fireplace pictured above so I'm assuming this is the gel-burning FP. 'Scuse my ignorance but what is "gel-burning"? I wish I could say our fireplace doesn't smoke but it does. Any tips?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:49 PM
Thanks for the info- the details are great and the cost sounds reasonable- would expect this guy gets a lot of work from this forum!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:49 PM
The fireplaces look great! May you enjoy them for many years to come!
I notice your flooring looks a lot like the pine subflooring in my house - only yours looks better. Did you do anything to restore it? Are you planning to redo it or put hardwood over it?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:55 PM
Yes 12:49 that is the gel burning FP. Gel is a gel with isopropyl alcohol in it (so it's a biofuel for what that's worth). Comes in cans (approx. $3 each) which last 3 hours. The log is just a ceramic log to look like birch. The gel burns with a flickering large flame with crackling (they add sea salt) and gives off a mild heat. Look up sunjel, realflame, etc. the manufacturers.
I think the easiest tip for a smoky FP (based on my reading) is to crack opn the window a bit in the room where the FP is and make sure all other windows are closed. Also burn hot fires. Before lighting the FP make sure the draft is not reversed. Light some paper and see where the smoke goes. If it does not go up, use a hairdryer or some burning paper to heat the air in the flue just before you light the fire.
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 1:11 PM
Looking over past posts on this subject, I glean that the fireplaces in our brownstones were likely built originally for coal and that their shallow depth precludes the concept the archetypal "roaring fire" using wood. Has anyone undertaking this type of project spoken with experts about actually staying with a coal fuel (whether coal, anthracite, or coke). Is it legal in NYC? What are the ecological effects of using coal in a fireplace versus wood?
Thanks,
John Ife
Posted by: johnife at February 14, 2008 1:33 PM
12:55 : Yes that is the heart pine/ pumpkin pine/ old-growth pine floor/ sub-floor. Ours probably had carpet/ rugs over it at one point. In the parlor FP pics, you will see we have the same floor in the parlor (actually the entire house). This one is untreated and I plan to keep it that way. It has a lovely patina and shine on it's own, dings, stains, spots and all.
The parlor floor was finished by the previous owners with polyurethane, the shiny kind. When it needs to be refinished I plan to strip it back to an unfinished state and at the most oil it. We have area rugs on both floors.
John Ife, you are right about these being coal FPs, which is why they are so shallow and suited to being converted to a Rumford type FP. I had initially thought of getting a gas coal basket insert, but the charm of wood seduced me. Coal fires get very hot, hotter than wood. Coal is also not a green fuel (wood is to an extent). I could burn coal in my wbfp if I wanted, only coal fires are hard to start and are meant to stay on most of the season to provide heat. They're not like the short fires that we burn with wood just for fun. Having said that, this FP heats the room by about 5 degrees above room temp with 3-4 logs in the FP. The most heat comes not from the roaring flames though, but from the embers when the flames slightly subside.
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 3:40 PM
Are those the same gel cans you use for fondue and catering trays? How funny to think they just add salt to make them a fireplace fire source.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 3:48 PM
3:48- That is Sterno, but it is very similar. Sterno has a small blue flame, the fireplace gel has large crackling flames. But, there are many recipes for homemade gel on the internet as well. The easiest involves mixing isopropyl alcohol that you buy in the drugstore with a half-finished can to extend the life of the can.
Forgot to mention the most important advantage of a gel FP: you do not need to line the flue or have a flue at all. You can have a fire on your dining room table or patio table if you wanted. It does not give off too much heat or fumes (although I have found that when you burn it for a while you do get some odor and you need to crack the window a bit).
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 3:54 PM
Can you tell me what is green about burning wood?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:10 PM
Here you go:
http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc/ask/stove
Posted by: ohiise at February 14, 2008 4:34 PM
Having grown up in the UK with coal-burning fireplaces, I can testify that they are a dirty, sooty pain in the arse. In our renovation we created two wbfs from what had previously been decorative hot air vents but I kinda regret that we didn't go for the gas option. There are some very handsome English gas grates available today (in both sleek modernists designs as well as traditional period designs) but they are damn pricey. I also looked at the amazing antique stoves (all of them rebuilt and can be converted to gas) from Good Times Stoves in western Mass. Anybody out there use gas?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:13 PM
guest at 6:13,
What a coincidence, I grew up in the UK as well and have fond memories of the warm glow of the smoldering embers emanating from the hearth in our "front room", which probably prompts my interest in the coal option. Hell, the heat source for the living room in the home I lived in 'til my teens was an old Rayburn coal-fired unit! It incorporated an oven (maybe 2, actually), hot plates and heated the domestic water too. I have vivid memories of my mother putting the yeast mixture to rise in the airing cupboard (which contained the hot water tank) next to the range and then cooking delicious bread in the range oven. Yum!
Posted by: johnife at February 14, 2008 6:41 PM
Ohlise,
That is assuming that you are using an advanced combustion wood burning stove or fireplace, which these brownstone fireplaces, definitely are not. These fireplaces produce a lot of soot. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with having a beautiful fireplace in your living room. Just don't kid yourself about being green.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 8:29 PM
8:29: Thanks for your compliments about the fireplace.
As far as the issue of green-ness, I would still want to maintain that wood is greener than burning coal, electricity (produced from coal) and natural gas whether it is burnt in a campfire or a EPA certified wood stove, if you look at the amount of carbon released when it is burnt. In terms of wood, the carbon released by burning is the same carbon that was sequestered by the tree as it grew, and would have been released by it's rotting, whereas with coal and gas you are removing sequestered carbon from under the earth that was fossilized and adding it to the atmosphere. You end up with a net gain of carbon when burning these fuels. Same with oil.
Then there is the issue of air quality. It is not yet proven that when stoves burn wood in real life (not the smoldering, but efficient, burn that the EPA uses when it tests them) burn cleaner than well-designed (and I agree there are many poorly designed FPs out there) fireplaces. CA certifies some FP designs as clean burning heaters.
Bottom line: I think the issue is more complicated than 'fireplaces dirty! stoves, gas, electricity and oil (God forbid!) clean!' There is no fuel without any environmental impact at all (wind, hydroelectric, nuclear included) and one could go crazy if one took an absolute stand about this. (Note the whole biofuels evidence that came up recently). Which is why I said 'wood is green (to an extent)'. But, I seem to think burning wood in a well-designed fireplace, especially harvested off land sustainably, is greener in some ways than other heating options, unless we look at solar powered electric heat, etc.
You may find some interesting points in the below link. Especially check out the article on emissions:
http://www.rumford.com/green/index.htm
John Ife, I'd love to have a wood-fired cook stove, in our house, but it might be a little bit inconvenient. Let's see... :-)
Posted by: ohiise at February 15, 2008 8:19 AM
Ohlise, I think all experts agree that wood burning fire places and stoves do not belong in urban environments and that if everyone used them in Brooklyn we would be in big trouble. In residential areas, wood stoves and fireplaces contribute the largest portion of particulate matter air pollution. If you are going to burn wood a high efficiency stove is the way to go, however even those contribute a significant amount of particulate matter to the atmosphere. The smell of a wood burning fire that we all know and love leads to increased respiratory symptoms, increased hospital admissions for lower respiratory infections, exacerbation of asthma, and decreased breathing ability and is particularly bad for children.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:16 PM
Hey John Ife,
Yesterday's 6:13pm poster here. Yeh, the Rayburn brings back memories for me too. As a 6-yr-old I used to perch on the dish-towel bar of ours until I almost scalded my bum. Like yours, it heated all the hot water for the house so I remember my poor dad shoveling in the coal and "riddling" it (I believe that was the term) in winter and summer alike. Ah, those were the days. Of course we also had to walk barefoot to school 4 miles everyday, uphill in both directions.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 6:15 PM
12:16: Listen, your question was: Can you tell me what is green about burning wood? And I responded to that. I also started with the comment that burning wood was greener than burning coal in a FP. And I hold on to both of those points. And that in some ways burning wood in a well designed FP can be as clean as burning it in a stove. So please read my last again, especially the link.Our air quality is compromised by multiple things (coal burning electric plants, cars) and I do not think FPs are a big part of that. I do not know what experts you are quoting and what they are saying, since you did not include that in your post.
However, I do not want to get into a debate over this. This was a post about my FPs which I posted because I wanted others to share the process I went through and my enjoyment of the finished product. So, seriously, I think this back and forth with you is detracting from that. And I do not want to participate in that. So have the last word if you want, if it bothers me I will just curl up by my new fire.
In the meantime John Ife and friend do not care about our green discussion and are going ahead with their reminiscences about burning coal. Go guys!
Posted by: ohiise at February 15, 2008 9:14 PM
Thanks for posting this. Getting the fireplaces up and running is a huge question mark in my reno: how much will it cost, how messy will it be, gas or wood, and now I realize that mine are likely coal too. Thanks for the post, and the link to the photos. Very informative. I actually appreciated the link to the environmental things as well. Doubly informative.
Sometimes this blog hits the right spot. Ahhhh...
:)
Posted by: hhitchc at February 15, 2008 10:00 PM
Sorry but the brick work looks horrible.
Not only the brick it's not fire proof,neither the mortar.
Step away when it gets really hot.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 10:18 PM
hhitchc: You are welcome. Thank you very much for your kind post. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to help, here or via e-mail. Just get it done during the reno, so the dirt is not so bothersome. Also go to www.rumford.com for the technical info about what constitutes a FP that will burn well. You don't have to buy all that stuff they sell, but the general ideas and articles will help.
10:18, that's the gel FP (decorative) you are looking at. It does not get hot. The wood burning one (pic in the link) has firebrick and refractory mortar as it should. However, FPs with regular brick and portland cement mortar do exist. The problem with these is the faster deterioration of the brick and mortar, not the conduction of heat or hot gases.
Posted by: ohiise at February 16, 2008 7:57 AM
Thank you for sharing the details and photos of this project! In the fall we bought a lovely old townhouse with three furnace-linked fireplaces. We've talked/mullled over changing them to wood burning, and while our project may be years away, we now have an idea of what it will entail. Great work, beautiful outcome!
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 12:47 PM
I think it is important for people to know how much pollution and health problems fire places can create. Even a well designed one like you have. An open fireplace releases lots of ash into the atmosphere and is highly inefficient. In fact, it pulls heat up the chimney and out of your home creating a vacuum in your home where warm air is replaced cold air from outside. I trust that people on this forum are as good as I am at doing a Google search.
But here is an interesting site to start your reading on open fireplaces.
http://www.greenlivingonline.com/HomeGarden/what-to-burn-in-your-fireplace/
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 9:39 AM
9:39, you may be right about the ash, but not about the efficiency.
Open fireplaces heat via radiant heat and by convection. So while they can pull cold air into a room thereby cooling it, they also warm objects in the room. The balance between these two processes determines whether a fireplace will heat or cool a room.
Many stove and fireplace insert manufacturers have subscribed to the 'fireplaces are inefficient heaters' theory for obvious reasons, and would like it to become common knowledge. My open fireplaces raise the room temperature by about 6-8 degrees when they are lit. I can also turn off the heat when they are lit, which decreases the pollutants from the boiler that make their way into the air.
Posted by: guest at February 23, 2008 4:32 PM
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