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February 15, 2008
Park Slope Renovation Advice?
My husband and I are interested in buying a fixer-upper in Park Slope.
This will be our first time renovating a home, and his first time buying a home. The apartment we're interested in is about 750 sq. feet on the top floor of a prewar townhouse. We think it's a good value (at around $420k), but we're worried about reno costs, neighbors, borough regulations, the coop board... Do you have any advice for us?
By the way, we're talking a gut renovation with limited cash available ($25k now and another $25k later in the year). Inspector thinks it's a decent apartment but needs lots of work.
Comments
Get contractors in to give you a bid.
Is it just cosmetic updates or plumbing and electrical?
Depending on how DIY savvy you are...I think you'll be surprised/shocked to find that you might need about 4x that money for GUT reno.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:03 PM
$25-$50K for a gut reno ain't gonna cut it.
Posted by: Emigre at February 15, 2008 2:30 PM
You really need to scope out the attitudes of the neighbors in your building and coop board members (which will be the same if it is a small building.) Ask other people what they think of them, too. Crucial in a coop. My attorney sat me down and advised me NOT to get into contract after talking to one board member of my 3-unit building (and I wasn't planning on renovating - it was done by the previous owners.) I didn't listen, and bought. Found out others in the building who had recently renovated their apartments had such issues with this one person that part of the reason they sold and moved (after just renovating their places, with much conflict, which they had planned to stay in longer) was because they couldn't stand living in the building with her. I found out that they were right, eventually. No one's people skills are up to dealing with some people - it is wearing. Be very wary of an owner who has lived there forever.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:32 PM
I have to agree that $50K is gonna be tight to totally redo a 1 bedroom place, but it could be done if you are ruthless about costs and not on a tight timeframe. If you think a new bathroom is gonna run 10K, and a new kitchen 20K, that leaves you 20K for floors, walls, painting, fees, electrical fixtures, etc. which is cutting it close. Also, this ain't gonna be Italian marble and $10k stoves. Make a list of what you think you'll need (bathtub/cabinets/sink/faucet/toilet/stove/etc), and see how much is left for labor, incidentals, etc. If there's not a whole lot left, it ain't gonna work.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:13 PM
You can't gut ANY apartment in New York for $50k. Any decent co-op will require you to have a licensed contractor and a building permit, which means you need an architect.
Having said that, you probably do NOT need to do a gut renovation. And you can make $50k go along way if you're smart about it and put your money at the renovaitons that make the most sense (redo the floors and do the kitchen and the bathroom, but don't redo all the moldings, doors, skim coat, etc).
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:16 PM
We're thinking we need to paint the walls and redo floors immediately, which may include some structural work (additional crossbeams). After that, it needs a new kitchen and should probably have a bathroom reno, too. We'd really like to change the floorplan, too, install new doors, knock out a closet here and there...
In other words, our time frame is sort of flexible. And it's somewhere between a complete gut reno and just cosmetic fixes.
Posted by: MsElaine at February 15, 2008 3:22 PM
Jeez, 50k will barely get you a decent kitchen and bathroom.
Unless the board is completely asleep, they will make you submit complete plans from an architect, and possibly an engineer. And still they may not let you do it. Have you thought there will have to be multiple shut-downs (building-wide) of plumbing while you are doing this?
At a bare minimum, see if you can submit exactly what you are planning to do to the board in advance, and see if they would, in theory, approve it.
Another thing to consider, if this 25k is all the money you have in the world after closing, the board may turn you down on financial grounds.
Posted by: denton at February 15, 2008 3:27 PM
I'm the husband.
I don't think it *needs* a gut reno. Cosmetically it doesn't really *need* anything more than a kitchen, a paint job, and some spot work on the floor.
My main concern is structural. The unit spans the width of the building (about 23.5 feet), and there's a load-bearing wall that runs down the middle. The floors on either side slant downward toward the middle wall by a noticeable amount. There's not a lot of cracking in the walls or other signs that there's a serious structural problem (though there is a little bit of cracking).
Apparently new windows were put in about 6 years ago, and they appear to have been put in level with the ground (i.e., not level with the slanted floor) when they were done, but now they too slant a bit, though not as much as the floor (because they were originally installed at an angle).
The engineer told us, "This is a very common problem in these turn-of-the-century buildings, and it could be caused by a number of things. I've seen better, and I've seen worse."
He seemed to think we didn't *need* to address the slanting, but that if we wanted to we could address the problem by ripping out the floor and reinforcing the floor joists by attaching a second joist to double their width.
He acted like it was sort of no biggie and not a deal breaker, but I think I want to bring someone else in just to get another opinion about it.
Do any of you have experience with this sort of problem? Would you agree with our engineer about its severity?
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:35 PM
Husband again...
BTW, 25k definitely isn't all the money we have in the world. We just don't want to plunge all the money we have in the world into renovations. Doesn't seem prudent. :)
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:39 PM
On the matter of cost: I dispute that $50K won't get you a kitchen and bathroom - it totally depends on how you do it and how you spend. We did a 1-BR near-total re-do for about $60K, though admittedly stayed clear of anything requiring an architect - no moved pipes, nothing at all structural. This included re-doing a lot of the sheetrock, painting and adding trim, new kitchen cabinets and appliances, a new kitchen floor, new tile, sink and commode in the bathroom, etc, and we refinished/repaired the wood floors. We evaluated every purchase and spent time searching high and low to find applicances, cabinets, fixtures, lighting, etc. with the look we wanted at a price -- no "dream purchase"-type spending.
We did a lot of it ourselves - painting, cleaning years of grime and paint off brick, stripping and refinishing, installing the cabinetry, etc. and had a contractor help with a number of things that we couldn't or chose not to handle ourselves. We interviewed several and found one who agreed to a fixed price for each part of the job rather than charging hourly/weekly. (There were still additions to the bill - that's inevitable and you should plan on it.)
Also, we had family we were able to crash with: figure in housing costs if you don't, since there will be a period of time when you really can't be there.
And I'll second the fact that you need to stay friendly and open with the neighbors - there will be noise, dust, water shutoffs (as mentioned above) and people can be prickly.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:47 PM
hehe, always fun watching the husband and wife agree on renovations :-)
I'm not an engineer but I'm not sure how you could fix the sagging without some access to underneath, in order to jack up the floor while the add'l joist is added. Adding an additional joist is not gonna make the sagging floor bounce back, but it will hold it after it is jacked up.
This would mean access to the apt under you and all kinds of delicious legal issues. Theoretically, the corp/board is responsible for fixing structural issues, but if your engineer says it's not a issue, you can be sure the board's engineer will feel the same way :-)
So, unless I am totally mis-reading the post, you will end up having to accept the sagging else move on to another apt.
You should be able to re-do kitchen and bath, paint and scrape/repair floors pretty easily provided you are not doing and relocating of plumbing and electric. But you should use a licensed contractor and get a cert of insurance covering you and the corp. Again, check with the board BEFORE buying.
Posted by: denton at February 15, 2008 3:54 PM
Hey 3:47, I never said 50k wouldn't get you a kitchen and bath, I said it will _barely_ get you one.
After seeing hubby's new scope of work, I agree, he could probably pull off the 1BR reno for 50k, especially by following your advice :-)
Less the joists, of course.
Posted by: denton at February 15, 2008 3:59 PM
You need to look at the apartments below you. The sagging could be from the structure supporting your floor, or it could be from sagging bricks in the basement (had this) causing all floors above to sag the same way. If it is the latter, if it structurally sound enough (though you might want to have the building support the bricks or joists or whatever is causing the sagging from below), and the slant is not so bad that it bugs you too much, you could leave it.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:07 PM
So sounds like the appeal of the apt is 420k price?
What about spending around 500-525k on a 1BR where you don't have to deal with all the renovations?
In other words...if you don't have a free place to stay for the next 3-6months and extra cash for the things that might go wrong mid-reno...is this apt really going to turn out to be THAT much of a good deal?
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 6:03 PM
I looked at that apt. and didn't think it was worth the trouble... Be careful... It has been sitting on the market for a long time for the same reasons why you're doubting whether the reno is worth it. Good luck!
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 6:29 PM
You won't get far on this site with 50k, that's chump change according to many.
Check my many posts on how to do things on the cheap. If there are no structural alterations, 15k each for kitchen/bath is plenty. But you won't get the overpriced and overhyped appliances and Grohe faucets (see comment by architect on reno blog, who spent 98k on a kitchen!...that's obscene in my book.)
Seriously. tho', if you don't spend money on the sagging floor, and dont smash-and-destroy in the name of renovattion, you should be ok.
Posted by: cmu at February 15, 2008 8:05 PM
"So sounds like the appeal of the apt is 420k price?
What about spending around 500-525k on a 1BR where you don't have to deal with all the renovations?"
Good question. :)
Answer: Because it's a large 1 bedroom that can be converted to a 2 bedroom. And even at $500-525k we'd be lucky to find that in Park Slope. Similar apartments after renovation seem to be going for around $620k.
Also, because we can live with imperfect floors. We can't live with a huge mortgage. (Our income is nice now, but may not always be so nice.)
A better question, for us, might be 'why are we even buying a place instead of just renting?' And that, I can't really answer except that I've been culturally programed to believe owning a home is what I'm supposed to do.
Our issues are: space, neighborhood, aesthetics. Husband requires nice neighborhood for feelings of security both financially and personally. Wife requires pleasing aesthetics for sanity. Both (plus pets and future kids) require space larger than current 300 sq. ft. apartment in Manhattan.
We've been looking for quite a few months and we haven't liked what we've seen. This is one of the only properties that's even piqued our interest.
Posted by: MsElaine at February 15, 2008 9:25 PM
I have to say, I think it's interesting that most people here seem to think our budget is the major problem and not the sagging floors. That gives me great hope :)
Posted by: MsElaine at February 15, 2008 9:28 PM
Try Queens, Jackson Heights particularly. For your budget you can get a great place and afford to gut it and be on many more express subway lines. People always think I'm crazy for saying this, but it's so much a better value that Park Slope. And it's great for kids and pets.
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 9:16 AM
Park Slope is a much nicer neighborhood than Jackson Heights, in my opinion.
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 11:12 AM
Try Marine park, you can buy a brick 3 br. house with lawn, garage, 500's, low crime, exc schools, amenities galore, express bus or D train to NYC, neighborhood is undervalued because nobody knows where it is, or thinks it has something to do with Flatbush crap.
Posted by: guest at February 17, 2008 12:04 PM
This is the apartment in question, it's been in the times for weeks.
http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/390-5527
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 8:01 PM
Jackson Heights has so little charm. And for some reason, most of the residents, particularly in the not quite so historic area are very strange and terribly nosy. Though some of the apartment buildings are architecturally decent, most resemble post-war era design. Park Slope will always be a better choice. Quality will ALWAYS beat quanity.
Posted by: guest at February 28, 2008 3:12 PM
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