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February 1, 2008
home search: realistic expectations?
Getting ready to start an out-of-state (mostly) search to find a new home in Brooklyn (my former home, so I'm very familiar with it). I'd love some advice about whether I have realistic expectations for what I'm looking for, lest I waste too much time holding out for that "just right" place that takes years to come along.
Budget: around a million (but thrilled to pay far less!), less if it needs work, more if there's rental income. Prefer something renovated or new, but if all else is perfect, we would consider doing reno ourselves.
Nabes: Prospect Heights, Park Slope, Ft. Greene,m Clinton Hill, Boerum Hill, etc. Walking distance to "good stuff." Would LOVE walking distance to Prospect Park and Grand Army Farmers Market. Not Lefferts Garden or Kensington (too far out, and not enough walkable stuff).
Size: 1500+ sq. ft. At least 1.5 bathrooms. Pref. 3 bedrooms (or two bedrooms plus office area), pref. formal dining room or ample dining space.
Must have: dedicated parking on-site or super nearby.
My (no doubt unrealistic) dream home: a townhouse with parking and a yard, sizable owner's duplex, plus in-law unit or studio and a one bedroom rental. I see one like this listed in Lefferts Garden, a limestone beauty, listed for under a mil. But it's too far! If it were this, I could probably swing $1.3 mil...
OR, a large condo for a lower price, with reasonable maintenance. Parking for sure. A patio or yard would be great. Actually, the Vermiel listings for the largest units seem perfect, except that they front 7th Ave and Sterling (with the windows RIGHT, right, right on the street) and the asking prices are high!
Am I crazy, or is this doable?
The other dream (im)possibility, a well-priced empty lot that meets the above requirements and is buildable... for a super-dope prefab...
Comments
No.
It's a simple no. You cannot get those things in those neighborhoods for that budget. Someone will write that you can. Someone will write that they did (X years ago). Someone will tell you to move to crown heights, lefferts gardens, bay ridge. They will be wrong. You need more money.
Personally, I say get rid of the car. Life is so much better without having to think about it. One of my favorite things on moving back to ny was the subway - even though I complain about it all the time now.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:34 AM
California dreamin...
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:40 AM
definitely think California has made you too optimistic!
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:48 AM
Okay, okay...! So cut out that paragraph about the "dream home." (I did say I knew THAT was unrealistic!! :) Is it still unrealistic? I was thinking a condo, co-op, or tiny S. Slope single family might fit the bill. No? The outdoor space is not a req, just a bonus... I'm seeing new development condos that seem to, but so much about the advertising for them seems deceptive, I'm not so sure...
Posted by: tanner at February 1, 2008 12:56 AM
I just posted a comment with some links, but I guess when you post various links the website has to approve them first--hopefully it'll show up tomorrow.
But the gist of what I said was to look at three South Slope listings (10th and 14th streets) that are $1.4 and less, I believe. You could probably get them for less since they've been on the market at those prices for a while. Run a search on NY Times and they'll show up.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 1:29 AM
Try Windsor Terrace too:
http://www.warrenlewis.com/cgi-bin/re/re_show.pl?re_command=show&ID=6271
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 1:44 AM
Prime location, renovated, parking, 3 bedrooms, dining space, rental income, not on too busy a street?
Your want list is probably similar to nearly every buyer out there. You won't find that for under a million without going to a less established neighborhood.
Also, I think your want list contradicts itself - if you want a super prime location, you will not have parking without paying an extreme premium. If you want to live in a busy area around stuff you will have to deal with noise and congestion.
But I could be wrong. Good luck!
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 1, 2008 8:33 AM
Somewhat more than your budget, but it meets all (or most) of your requirements, including parking (plus it has been on the market for a while, so maybe there is room in the price): http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/44-1022688
Plus its a great building.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 9:15 AM
Again, no. Even forgetting the dream home stuff and just going back to the 1500 sq ft, 3 bedroom (with or even w/o ample dining area) for $1M. No, not in those neighborhoods.
How much do you really have? What kind of downpayment and what kind of monthly can you pay. It sounds very flexible given that you say $1M or less and then say you could pay for a parking space you have to have and maintenance/condo fees if you didn't buy a house.
By the way, 9:15s rec may be flexible on the price which is 50% more than your budget, but I doubt they're flexible on the $1500/mnth fees. Ouch.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 9:44 AM
If you can give up on the parking space idea, you'll have a much better chance of finding what you want in PS, more likely WT though. But you could definitely find the parking and the space for under your budget if you were willing to look as far as Bay Ridge - beautiful limestones, still walkable to tons of amenities and plenty of park space (Shore Road, Owls Head Park, etc.) If you look in the northern parts (60's, 70's) you're just an extra 2 express stops on the N train from Park Slope and you're there!
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 9:49 AM
Agree with several others that your parking requirement is probably the big dealbreaker in your requirements. Very few places around here--even (and maybe especially) townhouses--have dedicated parking, and if they do, that really ups the price.
I too would suggest you consider giving up your own car. (Why bring a piece of California car culture back to Brooklyn?! ;) Look into Zipcar (zipcar.com). I'm a huge fan. They have tons of locations now (and add new ones quite frequently) and are very very convenient.
Posted by: statestreet at February 1, 2008 10:03 AM
It's not the car that's the problem. Ignore the car and you still cannot get 3 br where you want for 1 mill.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 10:17 AM
Why do people suggest bay ridge when OP already said lefferts gardens is too far.
Bay ridge boosters need to realize that it's not just that bay ridge is physically too far. It's too far culturally and psychologically.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 10:19 AM
How about this place? No dedicated parking but I live in the area and see open spots more often than one would expect.
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1145351
Posted by: MsBrooklyn at February 1, 2008 10:42 AM
10:17, I don't think that's necessarily true. Last summer I saw several places in Park Slope with a friend who was looking for just that--3 bedrooms, 1.5-2 bath for a million or less. They weren't perfect; some were not recently renovated (although still in perfectly fine, livable condition), some bedrooms were smallish. But we still saw several--and I'm guessing prices now are softer than they were then.
Posted by: statestreet at February 1, 2008 10:47 AM
I won't moralize and go so far as to tell you to leave your car on the left coast, but I do think you should be realistic - very few places, even new construction, are going to have dedicated parking, and those that do will sell for a significant premium. If you plan to keep the car, expect to park on the street or pay extra for a garage. Check out the walk to local garages when you're looking, and ask if they have a waiting list.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 10:55 AM
Try the South Slope. You can get a decent frame house for that, sometimes with parking. Parking on the street is much better than the Slope anyway. Having a car is nice, don't listen to the haters.
Posted by: denton at February 1, 2008 11:41 AM
Look in Carroll Gardens east/Gowanus area (btw hoyt/bond)- houses there are small - about 1800 sq ft and usually go on the market for about 1.3 - and can be bought for more like 1.15. You can rent out one floor, but that would make it a two bedroom. The houses usually need some work but not tons, and all the streets have tons of parking for the time being (that will change I'm sure when/if all the Gowanus development happens.) I live in the area and always can park right in front of my house.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 11:42 AM
Not crazy - just sounds like it because it is a fake post. I call it.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 11:45 AM
You can find a house, with rental income. We did. We found a great place in Crown Heights, just off Franklin. Unlike what people will tell you, this area is not crime-ridden - at least no more than what I hear going on in Prospect Heights. You need an area that is changing, gentrifying to find a nice house within your budget. Alternatively you will spend alot of money on an apartment in an established nabe, but know that in a few years those same houses in Crown Heights or Bed Sty will be out of reach - and new amenities seem to be popping up every few months. For example, we just got a new wine shop on the corner of Franklin and Prospect ! Lots of Rioja crianza, champagne - yumm. Note the sign hasnt yet been changed - it still says "Discount Liquors" but they told me they will change it soon. Good luck and dont let the nay-sayers scare you from Crown Heights North or Bed Sty....
Posted by: crownheights2007 at February 1, 2008 11:49 AM
(Oh come on 11:45, if this is a fake post she's sure put a lot of effort into it--given her previous posts leading up to it.)
OP, perhaps your townhouse wish isn't so unreasonable after all, if you look in South Slope/Greenwood as 11:41 suggested--check out the first entry in "Just Sold" just posted on Brownstoner's homepage...
Posted by: statestreet at February 1, 2008 11:50 AM
OP,
I presume you're aware that Lefferts Gardens is only ONE subway stop further than Park Slope.
A few brownstones and limestones there have parking as do a good number of the neo-Federal brick houses. Even street parking is easier than in most other brownstone \neighborhoods. Plus, I think it's just about the only neighborhood bordering Prospect park that comes close to your price criteria.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 1, 2008 11:51 AM
I disagree with those saying you can still find something in these neighborhoods for a million. Because any house priced for a million or a little under needs a lot of work. You say you're open to that, but a full renovation costs $100K per floor, and a minimum of $100K for the whole house if you are only updating mechanicals and not doing finishes. So you'd need to look for a house priced at $850K to $900K.
Lefferts Gardens is not too far, if you are looking at the two different express subway lines in PLG, it's closer in travel time to Manhattan than the places you listed. There is ample parking on the streets. But even in PLG, I don't know if you could buy and do basic renovation on a house for a million. Lefferts Manor is desireable but doesn't allow apartments. There are landmarked streets outside the LM district you could take a look at. There isn't a big turnover though, so not a lot of houses listed at any given time.
It really seems you should be looking at condos and coops, for sure, to get 3BR or even 2BR with more than one bathroom in any of your preferred neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:00 PM
Yes, fake. "she" was posting the same stuff a few months ago. A quick perusal of the free new york times online would let someone know this is impossible. Clearly "knows Brooklyn well" ... waste of time.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:06 PM
About the pricing in PLG, the price might sometimes be closer to what the OP wants but for the smaller houses on non-LM streets. Non-LM streets being great. But the smaller houses don't have 2 bathrooms in the owner's unit. Because the parlor floors in the 2-story houses almost never have a bathroom and if someone did add it then it's a renovated house that will be priced higher. So ultimately, to answer the OP's question, I'd still say the full criteria would not be met for a million or under in PLG.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:08 PM
I don't think it's fake. Isn't this the person who is relocating from CA and who has been posting questions lately?
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 12:09 PM
I dont know why some of you think this is impossible. Just last year - around Feb/March we were looking at limestones in PLG for 640,000-670,000 that were in move in condition. You may have wanted to redo the kitchen and bathrooms but the space was perfectly fine. We preferred Crown Heights North for proximity to the Brooklyn Museum, 2,3,4,5 trains into Manhattan, and amenities in Prospect Heights (2 blocks away) and Park Slope (15 min walk). For info - the New York Times is not the only place to find listings. I found it very helpful to go to the local real estate companies to find listings in the neighborhood. I would never approach the Corcorans , Brown Harris Stevens A&H (though I did initially). They all told me I would never find something in my price range, when in fact, they just didnt have listings in my price range ! The place we eventually bought needs a total of approx 40,000 work to get into good form (including the rental). We put in 30 so far and are slowly making improvements...Im glad we didnt get a finished house - this way we can do it to our taste and requirements....A corporate lawyer (another Manhattan transplant) on our street bought his house 2 years ago for a bit more than 700,000 - and it had been totally redone. With a million, you should be perfectly fine. The thing is these houses dont come on the market often and when they do the locals often go to local RE companies rather than the big buys. I would start there....
Posted by: crownheights2007 at February 1, 2008 12:40 PM
Fake post? I have no idea what would be gained from a fake post like this one. Some of you are just funny...
To the rest of you, thanks for your advice. It's super helpful. I have no delusions that I'd find what I'm looking for in *prime* park slope or ft. greene. I'd be thrilled to be in s. slope or the fringes of any of the neighborhoods I mentioned, if it's walking distance to good stuff. I work from home and have one little one with me, another in the next year hopefully, so convenient is good. Playgrounds are, too.
The car thing is hard... I'm a native of the motor city, originally, and I have to say, all the auto company workers in my family have just gotten into my blood. But besides, my husband will probably working in the Bronx, and public transportation to there is just a killer. We've done it before. (Lived in Sunset Park for a very long time.) I really want to move back to BK, not to the BX, so easy parking is just a must for us.
I know about Prospect Lefferts... I've been eyeing a place there for a while. And yes, I know it's not much farther than the slope via train, but it's the walking distance thing...
I'd like to exhaust all the possibilities before widening the neighborhood search... Maybe "prime" windsor terrace, though i always thought it was a tad bland over there... Maybe I'll look into Crown Heights.
Check this place out. Needs a lot of work, inside and out, I'd guess. Anyone have a good guess about how much? Is the 100k per floor one poster suggested a pretty good starting point? http://www.ahrlty.com/H-198W/H-198W.html
Posted by: tanner at February 1, 2008 1:10 PM
I'd keep looking at PLG, Tanner. Great stuff for kids: playgrounds, zoo, botanic garden, lake, carousel. It takes 20 minutes to walk across the park. I just bought a place that fulfills all your recs (except parking) for well under a million. And I don't think prices are going up at the moment. The neighborhood is changing fast. 20 story condo going in on Lincoln Rd. You'll get much more for your money if you are willing to take the long view on some of these neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 1:33 PM
You're going to make your husband commute back and forth everyday to the bronx and then come home to 1-2 kids? At least move to queens.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 1:35 PM
Hmm the A&H site says it needs "TLC" frankly I think its overpriced and you could get a nice limestone, brick or brownstone house instead of a wooden house, elsewhere....Note I have a toddler and another on the way. The lawyer I mentioned above has two kids ages 5 and 9. We all use the playground on Underhill and Prospect (10 min walk away)...Oh and we do have a car and park everyday in front of the house. This is really needed for trips to a real supermarket here and there (Fairway in Red Hook is best). Parking availablity may change with the new condos that are going to be built up the street.....
Posted by: crownheights2007 at February 1, 2008 1:51 PM
easy on the annoying self-righteous bit, 1:35. you don't know anything about their situation, and regardless, i'm sure she (or anyone else) doesn't need your advice on personal matters.
and anyway, depending on where in the bronx, it's not a bad commute.
tanner, that listing has been up for a while. you could get it for a lot less, i bet. do you know what block it's at? still, i think it's over-priced, anyway.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 2:04 PM
When they say a frame house in the South Slope needs TLC, they mean a gut rehab. Those houses are usually too small to keep the rental. Find out if it's delivered vacant. Also check the width of the 'horsewalk'. Sometimes they're too narrow to get a car up safely.
Posted by: denton at February 1, 2008 2:38 PM
I would be that the south slope home is on a horrible block. There's a lot of horrible "end of the world" feeling blocks in the south slope. houses in the nice parts are substantially more expensive than this. If you're really commuting to the Bronx - Williamburg and greenpoint have much easier commutes.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 2:53 PM
2:53 is right. South Slope and Sunset Park have cute blocks and terrible blocks. Any neighborhood's blocks vary to some degree, but in those two neighborhoods you tend to see more extremes one way or another. It's essential to see this one in person to know if you should even consider it seriously. So don't fly from CA mainly just to see that one house. Have a list of several places in several neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 3:17 PM
Ok, fantasy is maybe the right word instead.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 3:55 PM
Sitting at a computer in Cal. (if there) wanting to "exhaust all the possibilites before widening the neighborhood search" and "eyeing a place [in PLG] for awhile" - all online?
THIS is how one goes about seriously looking for a home in Brooklyn?
You/we all are too kind, too helpful with the advice.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 4:37 PM
4:37, I have no idea whatsoever what that means.
I've been watching all the realtor's websites for a while, (which includes, yes, a place in PLG that seems perfect to me EXCEPT for the fact that it's in PLG) and my husband and I are almost ready to get serious about searching. Thought I'd get some advice here before that.
Sorry if that offends you.
Seriously, though, I'd be thrilled if someone would explain why some folks on this forum are so hostile and skeptical. I can't quite figure out why anyone would think I'd be a "fake"... or why in the world anyone would want to "fake" a post like this in the first place...???
Posted by: tanner at February 1, 2008 5:36 PM
"...I'd be thrilled if someone would explain why some folks on this forum are so hostile and skeptical".
Nothing to do with Brooklyn, but a lot to do with the anonymity of blogs.
Good luck with your search
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 1, 2008 7:48 PM
You should rent in one of those nabes for a year. During that time, you'll be in brooklyn, so you can go to open houses and check out various areas that you like. Also, as you know, the market is really in flux right now. Could go down, could go way down, could be where it is right now, which is very little inventory and prices for anything but great properties either flat or accepting offers below asking price.
It's so hard to find a good home to buy in New York even when you already live here. Doing it from 3,000 miles away, unless your absolutely loaded, is nearly impossible.
I DO think you can find a co-op or condo in most of those areas for $1 mil or under that will meet your needs. But it will take some looking and a willingness to go "all in" when you see what you want.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 8:46 PM
You CANNOT find a condo or coop or house in those areas for 1 million with 1500+ sq. ft., 3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, formal dining room or "ample" dining area, and dedicated parking.
Nor can you find a townhouse with parking and a yard, a "sizable" duplex PLUS studio or in-law apartment PLUS one-bedroom rental for 1.3 million.
Nor a large condo for a lower price with "reasonable" maintenance (even if condos had maintenance), parking, a yard or patio, but no windows on the street please.
Nope, nada.
Yes you are crazy. Next.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 9:50 PM
Hey 9:50:
I just sold a coop, 3br, 2 bath, 2 outdoor spaces, 1 parklng space, for 900k, 4th ave and 5th street. So don;t rule out coops. Unless you are broke.
Posted by: denton at February 1, 2008 10:49 PM
In Jackson Heights you can get an entire house with a yard and parking for less than $1M and be in a great school district and close to a major transit hub 10-15 minutes from Manhattan. Not to mention a short train ride to the largest park in the boroughs and have the best Indian, Columbian, Argentinian, Korean and Chinese food all around you.
Screw Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 1, 2008 11:30 PM
1500+ sq ft Denton? And do you actually think anyone that who doesn't want any windows right on the street at the rather uncommercial intersection of 7th Av. and Sterling Pl. really wants to live on 4th Ave? (I don't, and I'm nowhere near as picky.)
Posted by: guest at February 2, 2008 10:03 AM
This is what every single person in NYC whether renter or buyer goes through, anyone who doesn't have unlimited funds that is. Lots of money can buy everything on the wish list. Less money means having to decide what you care most about on the list and compromise on the rest. Everybody's decisions about those priorities are different.
Posted by: guest at February 2, 2008 10:45 AM
BED- STUY you can get a house with great detail and parking is no problem most of the time, but other things are lacking but you cant have it all.
Posted by: guest at February 2, 2008 9:08 PM
It's definitely a possibility, regardless of what the cynics here say. Just check this out: http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/56-763682
Prime Park Slope, over 1700 sf, decent monthly, parking, etc., etc. Too bad it's in contract!
Don't give up. But it might be hard to find from afar. I agree you might need to rent here for a year if you're going to find what you want. The only problem is, you might not be able to afford it a year from now!!
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 12:12 AM
Wow 12:12 poster! I can't beleive what is passing today for new construction in Park Slope. That apartment looks so cheaply built. Be very careful when and if your search turns to new construction. Almost every part of Brooklyn and Queens has awfull new condos for sale, many about to turn into rentals as they are unsellable. BEWARE the south slope/ greenwood heights area when looking for condos. Rent while you search seems less stressful.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 6:24 AM
12:12, who's sleeping in the great room? This woman said she needs a 3 bedroom. Of course, she also needs a separate dining room/area...
and a reality check.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 9:58 AM
Reality check is right. There's not even such thing as a 3BR plus separate dining room in condos or coops in Brooklyn. They ALL have combo LR/DR rooms that aren't all that big. That's what you'll find in any neighborhood. There are a few huge units with separate formal dining rooms in the prewar coop buildings on Prospect Park West in Park Slope but OP, you'd be spending at least $3 million for one of those and they're never for sale anyway.
Posted by: guest at February 3, 2008 1:58 PM
Actually I said I'd *prefer* 3 bedrooms and that I'd *prefer* a dining room or ample (which means big enough for a table) dining *space*.
Anyway, thanks, folks.
Posted by: tanner at February 5, 2008 1:26 PM
And, btw, given that my post was quite specifically (and sincerely) asking for advice on whether what I'm hoping to find is realistic or not (and, in fact, that I was clear in my OP that I was describing a "dream" from which I was working to define my actual expectations), I wasn't really expecting so many smart-ass "this lady needs a reality check" and "you are crazy, don't waste our time" comments. Interesting the cowardice that comes along with that -- always the unregistered, anonymous "guest." Hope that feels empowering.
Brownstoner, if you're reading this, I'd like to suggest requiring folks to register with a username before posting comments. It would go a long way toward more respectful dialogue and the building of an actual community--something I always think of Brooklyn as being rooted in.
Posted by: tanner at February 5, 2008 1:34 PM
Don't know what you are complaining about.
You listed what you wanted and your budget and specifically asked "am I crazy?"
Some told you yes, you were crazy, as you couldn't get that for the money. Others told you you'd have to compromise on many of your musts, including parking, and mainly going to different neighborhoods.
You got a lot of opinions and advice. Sounds like Brownstoner worked for you. What are you bitchin' about?
Posted by: guest at February 8, 2008 12:10 PM
Tanner,
If you are still reading this post. I live in So. Slope with a 2 family brick (duplex with garden & 1 br rental), 3 blocks from Prospect Park.Home is 17 1/2 wide by 100 and will be going on the market within the next 3 weeks at 975K. This area has a lot better option for mass transportation (4 different subway lines, 3 major bus routes that go to downtown Brooklyn)
The So Slope is a great area and well established as long as you stay east of 5th Avenue. MAny terrific restaurants and shops opening all the time. We have 2 great public elementary schools that are not crowded unlike PS 321. Not sure if there is a way to privately contact you but I would be more than happy to tell you who my house will be listing with.
Good luck on your search
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 9:33 PM
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