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February 17, 2008
cost to gut reno 16.5 x 40 brownstone?
Does $500-600K sound high, low, or realistic to gut renovate a 16.5 x 40 3 story brownstone, including all professional fees (i.e. if we use an architect)? We originally thought work was mainly cosmetic but following inspection, it really does seem to be a gut reno. Currently used as 2 family (lower duplex with garden kitchen, and top floor rental) that's kind of chopped up, we want to take over whole house. We thought we wanted kitchen moved to parlor but are open to keeping on garden if that's more economical, and if the garden can be made to feel like less of the dungeon it currently feels like. We do NOT want central AC, and in general are not "fancy" types - we like simple, clean, contemporary but not super high end (i.e. we're fine making compromises like Ikea kitchen cabinets). Also, there's little to no detail to preserve.
Thoughts?
Comments
Ask yourself this. Imagine the property after you've spent this $500-600k. Would you be prepared to pay the new total (purchase price plus renovation) for it? If not then only spend what you think you'd be prepared to pay for it finished.
Also for that money I hope you're ripping out the existing staircase and replacing it with a centre staircase so at least your rooms can be the full 16' wide.
Posted by: guest at February 17, 2008 5:35 PM
Sounds high w no central air and your lifestyle decisions. I'd tell the architect your budget was 200-250k and move up as needed.
Posted by: denton at February 17, 2008 5:43 PM
Sounds high, but not enough info. Some ballpark figures based on work I've had done to my brownstone
1. 5k to 8k to rewire each floor, and another 5k to bring in new main line from street and a new main box
2. Roof, if necessary-- up to 20k, maybe as low as 7-10k, depends
3. Do you need new support beams? 5k-20k
4. How are the windows-- depends on quality, but you could spend $3k to 30k
5. Are you talking about gutting as in ripping down plaster and replacing with drywall? You could do a lot of demo yourself, and hire cheap labor and a dumpster yourself (plan for $600 to $800 for each of two or three dumpsters)-- but it's really a waste to get rid of plaster just because contractors don't want to work with it. It's better insulation, holds up better to water, etc etc. Check a guy called "Big Wally" online who appears on This Old House. Save that stuff and save yourself some money
6. A kitchen-- the sky is the limit, but an ikea kitchen should not be more than 50k, and maybe as low as 30k-40k. All depends on what you want to change and the quality of what you buy, and size (ex. a nice set of cherry cabinets-- $15 to 20k uninstalled)
7. Front stoop totally redone (about 10k). If the entire front surface of the building needs brownstone reapplied (about $80k)
8. and so on. I suggest getting a good, independent inspector to come in. I know two guys, both have been pretty much spot-on with what they have warned me I would need (before buying the house) and the approximate costs. For $500 you can get an unbiased opinion. watch out, though. I've met a few inspectors that are a little too optimistic about what things are going to cost.
I'm restoring, so I'm attacking the problem in a different way, but I hope some of these costs I've run into over the past year are helpful.
mikez in crownheights
Posted by: guest at February 17, 2008 5:44 PM
Sounds very high to me based on your description of the finishes. Unless there is something very unusual about it, you should not have to spend that much.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 17, 2008 6:14 PM
So what does sound realistic? 400? 450? We are about to renegotiate purchase price based on renovation needed so I'm wondering what's safe to earmark. The house has all kinds of problems - rotting joists, shoddy workmanship, dangerous electricity (it had a fire a few years ago) - though what's hard to tell from speaking to architect/inspectors is how much of this is pretty typical in these old brownstones. It was represented as being all new mechanicals, so needless to say, the fact that they are in such bad shape requires a major reconsideration...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 18, 2008 10:00 AM
I thought your comment "if we use an architect" a bit odd. Are you considering gutting and rebuilding without an architect?
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 10:09 AM
I don't think the first commenter is correct - that you should be willing to pay for the house its purchase price + your investment. It is pretty well known that renovations increase value, but cannot be immediately recaptured in a resale. You will probably spend more than you want to, but you count on the appreciation of the house over time to compensate. But it will be your home, something you put own effort into and something you will be proud of.
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 10:15 AM
150-200 k would do a very good finish. anything else is a huge mark up.
Posted by: armchairwarrior at February 18, 2008 11:05 AM
didn't you already ask this?
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 11:23 AM
Why don't you bring 3 GCs a list of all the things the architect/inspector say are needed and ask them for itemized quotes. Why are you thinking readers who don't do this for a living and who don't know what you specifically need can give you numbers?
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 11:43 AM
I am in the middle of a renovation myself, and honestly, I would follow 11:43 advice.
Based on my costs, your initial figure does not sound high at all, but the reality is that different people mean different things when they say 'gut', and we all have different expectations.
Only your contractor will be able to tell you accurately what things will cost. Good luck.
Posted by: Ray at February 18, 2008 12:36 PM
Thanks everyone. To clarify, I have been speaking to GC's, but, for example, have found a few things to be confusing: 1) many people tell me that it's ALWAYS more than the GC originally says; 2) some GC's factor in materials (i.e. appliances, tile), others don't. So, I'm really asking others who have the experience doing to comment based on what their costs have been. Re: whether we use an architect - we have been advised by some people that we don't necessarily need an architect since the house is small and there are not that many options. I'm leaning towards using an architect, since I think it's worth it to optimize the space, but I'm just exploring different ways to do this, in order to weigh the best results vs. the cost effectiveness.
Posted by: housesearcher at February 18, 2008 2:48 PM
Speaking from very recent (just finished) personal experience... We did a almost gut-reno with mid range finishes. i.e., completely redid 2 kitchens (one of which Ikea) and 3.5 baths (2 of which Ikea), did add central air, kept old flooring for the most part, minimized tiling, etc. Almost all walls are new. We did not have to do windows (that's next year), roof, or facade/stoop. We did re-do all wiring, as well as plumbing risers. Used an extremely competent architect and a mid-range GC. Total came to about $500K. I should add size: 20x45, 4 floors.
Why use architect: Are you going to carefully specify where every outlet and light switch goes? Are you going to think through moving the plumbing? Are you comfortable assessing load-bearing walls? Are you going to prepare the drawings to file with DoB?
Our architect was quite clever with space usage (bathrooms, kitchens), and demonstrated many times how much we didn't know what we didn't know. They also managed the GC through the construction process. That may not be a requirement for you, but we definitely found it to be worthwhile. For example, when we had the inevitable surprises (joists needing to be replaced), we used the architect as a second opinion, to make sure that the GC's proposal was really the best solution.
Just one person's experience. And by the way, I echo the comments of others -- add up purchase price + reno price, and avoid renovating past the intrinsic value of the house. If the math doesn't work, wait for another house. Based on your prior posts, sounds like you're really particular about location. There will always be another house (we looked approx a year; have friends who looked for 3 years) -- just depends how urgent your situation is. Best of luck with your project!
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 6:36 PM
I'm in the middle of a gut renovation on a similarly sized house, and I'd like to recommend that you hire an architect. I second everything that 6:36 said, and more. My husband is an architect, and I don't know how we'd be doing this otherwise. He's there almost every day, and on the rare days that he's not something always goes wrong -- the contractor is installing the insulation wrong, they put the plumbing pipes in the wrong place, etc. Things that we'd never have caught if he wasn't an architect. Not to mention that contract double-charging for things -- not on purpose, I think, but through carelessness. Charging for an item, and then including it again as part of a larger item, that kind of thing, which my husband could pick out on a bill but I never oould have.
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 8:58 PM
If you hire an architect, they are not likely to be there everyday to catch all those mistakes. You need a reliable GC too.
Posted by: guest at February 19, 2008 1:30 PM
I do house restorations as a part of my business.
I have never seen a 3 story brownstone that would cost me more than 150-175k. Add 100k for a good contractor and you have about 250k. Unless you go nuts with your kitchen cabinets and tile work and plumbing fixtures thats the number.
GC's make enormous amounts of money. Why not cut their fee out and do it yourself? If you have some knowledge of construction its not that hard. With the internet at your fingertips its easier than its ever been to learn.
While I agree about keeping some of the plaster walls when you can, its not always practical. First off its way more expensive to re-plaster a wall as opposed to laminating it just replacing it with drywall. Secondly the R-Value with drywall and R13 or R19 insulation behind it is better than plaster, you will feel warmer. Lastly, IMO drywall looks better when finished. A combination of new drywall or laminated drywall (to existing plaster) or re-plastering when necessary if the best way to tackle that.
-ev
Posted by: evperry at February 19, 2008 11:57 PM
Where is the house?
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 11:05 AM
I have found $100K/per floor is a very rough number to start with for gut or near gut renovations. An architect is necessary if you need to file plans which it sounds like you will. Having a detailed construction/project manager will make all the difference as a previous poster stated unless you want to specify every plumbing line an electrical outlet.
I am looking for an architect to do an extension including a new bathroom and moving the kitchen on the lower duplex of a landmarked bedstuy building of similar proportions, any recommendations?
Posted by: guest at February 20, 2008 2:51 PM
quest I took notes on your comment about the costs of restoring a place. I am looking to buy right now and my dad's helping me assess the value based on the cost and what needs to be done. I plan to buy multi-fam and live there so I want it to be nice. We are looking for move-in condition and renter occupied but I've found so many amazing location/needs gut reno for dirt cheap in this market. If I lay it out in bottom line numbers I can see if they crunch and your comment posted above just helped me with most of my research. Again, thanks so much! ~ Renee in Boston
Posted by: guest at March 9, 2008 5:39 PM
In middle of a gut renovation of the owner's duplex of 4-story townhouse (20x40). Before starting anything, I was told I should use $100-150k per floor as rough guide (for live-in quality, vs flipping). Then an architect's fee is some % of that (10?). Now in middle of it and here are my takeaways.
1. You'd be nuts do attempt a gut without an architect. No way you can just study up on the Code and its exactly intuitive. You probably lack the practical experience of identifying and solving problems.
2. We were penny-wise, pound foolish on the architect fee. We started with a young architect who was a friend of a friend and willing to do it "cheaper". He hard worked on larger projects as part of his firm but ours was his second residential project where he was in charge (and was doing it as a "moonlight" type project). This was a disaster. There was a lot he didn't know, and we didn't know anything, and we got nowhere (but still had to pay out a bunch). Finally we got parted ways, got an experienced architect, and things went much smoother (and discovered a lot of mistakes). Our architect is John Hatheway (nice guy who'll work w you). No, I don't work in his office.
3. Our GC bids came in at $250-$300K (plus one lunatic at $400), including all fixtures (Dornbracht) and tiles (priceo ones) and bulk materials. And we're adding on $30-50k as we go along and discover new problems, come up with new ideas, and choose to get the "better" this and that. Kitchen cabinets are separate from this; $40k from Allmilmo (modern, light grey lacquer). So that adds up to $320-350k for 2 floors, for what we think is a "high-end" job.
Big things we're doing are (1) knocking out back walls and installing glass walls under steel beams, (2) installing a Daikin ductless split A/C system, (3) semi-finishing the basement. We're not doing the stoop or facade.
4. The comment about $40k for an Ikea kitchen sounds expensive for your size. Going full width of the house? Our Allmilmo is for a 10x15 galley-style. I love Ikea and I had though their kitchens looked great for the price but if you're looking to spend $40k, I'd at least look at Poliform, Poggenpohl and Allmilmo. My sister had her GC make her cabinets and she regrets it. Lots of little things make for really good cabs (soft-close etc); doubt a GC is going to get them right.
5. When you open up your house, you're probably going to find a lot of problems. We sure did.
6. Check out the Daikin ductless split system. Its like a central A/C without the ducts; it uses the thin pipes of a Mr. Slim set-up. But it doesn't have those big units sticking out of the walls; its registers look like a central system. I may be the first person on Brownstoner to install this system but seems popular outside the US. Its expensive.
Good luck!!
Posted by: guest at March 25, 2008 7:18 PM
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