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February 13, 2008
Contractor price per square foot?
We are considering buying a modest brownstone - 16.5 x 40', 3 stories (currently used as 2 family with top floor rental). What is a "safe" cost per sq ft to budget for renovation? It seems to be all over the map - I've been quoted 200/psf up to 500/psf. We are not "fancy" types - we have a tight budget and like a simple, clean look (a la Dwell magazine) and are not dealing with restoring tons of old detail, since the house does not have much. So far, a couple of architects have said we could squeak by and renovate 2 floors for 200-250K, but I have trouble meshing that to contractor prices I've been given.
Re: work we want to do - The house is in decent shape but we do want to do pretty major work including: flipping configuration so that we could first live on upper duplex (and hopefully eventually afford to take over garden) though this means putting kitchen on parlor; nearly gutting parlor floor (taking down a bunch of walls, creating kitchen & possibly a powder room and closet); top floor some reconfiguration but not as extreme - mainly ripping out kitchen to make bedroom larger (currently that room is a LR) and possibly add closet space, renovate bath and add add'l closet space, and maybe change door entry point to small study in front half of room (currently opens from adjacent BR, we want it to open from hall).
We are about to go to contract but are dying to get more of a sense of the true cost of renovation - can it done be rather thriftily? To me, 200-250K seems like a hell of a lot of money!
Thanks -
Comments
There really is no way to answer this and thats why you are getting a myriad of answers.
Do you need to redo any of the mechanicals? (plumbing, electrical, heating, etc..)
If the work is mostly cosmetic + configuration and you find the right team of people to work with, you should be able to do it for amt or even less if you are really careful about your choices.
Keep in mind that kitchens are the most expensive kind of renovations. Every square inch of a kitchen is expensive. You can't really use a sq foot renovation price to determine total costs if most of the work you are doing is focused on kitchen work.
One way to help you keep your costs down is to make the kitchens on the small side. If you have huge kitchens, there is really no way to do it cheaply b/c the material costs get so out of control. A smaller kitchen lets you have some of the nicer finishes mixed with cheaper options to give it a nice look without going crazy on the cost. (Keep in mind that you can EASILY spend $100K in a single large kitchen with even mid range choices. I know, it sounds crazy but it is indeed possible and is often the case with kitchen renovations.)
Another way to keep your costs down is to minimize the amt of work you are doing on the top floor. You obviously have to get rid of the kitchen but ripping out walls to make big rooms is probably not the best use of the money if your budget is tight.
Also keep in mind that very minimal interiors like those seen in Dwell are EXTREMELY expensive. Don't assume simple stying = low cost. To get that sort of look you need real perfection in the design as well as the finishing as well as high end choices.
My last bit of advice is to monitor your budget very carefully. You'd be surprised how little trips to Home Depot and random splurges can eat into your budget.
Hope this helps! Im at the end of a similar project so I feel for you. Good luck!
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 13, 2008 3:00 PM
Oh, Ms. Limestone. You are so sensible and reasonalble! A agree with your excellent, tempered advice!
Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:27 PM
Mrs. Limestone is right -- simple and clean does not mean inxpensive. We just finished a renovation that is Dwell-ish (a little warmer, I think) and because of the need for clean lines, it is actually harder for the contractor. I compare it to hair cuts -- pin-straight hair is a lot harder to cut than curly hair -- nowhere to hide imperfections.
Good luck!
Posted by: luvtocook at February 13, 2008 6:37 PM
OK, thanks, that's helpful, but is there still a "rule of thumb" i.e. 200/psf? As for condition of mechanicals, they are in decent shape (current owner upgraded electrical service but perhaps not the full distribution). So, it's not a total gut - though it's also not totally cosmetic either. What the heck do people do when deciding whether to purchase these homes? Even this little one is not cheap, so must you just be wealthy to conceive of renovation? Sigh - I thought we were there, but I'm now getting scared of biting off more than we can chew. Any other advice appreciated...
Posted by: housesearcher at February 13, 2008 7:50 PM
I did a $$$ renovation, but here is how I would keep costs down. Hire an architect & expediter to do plans but be your own GC. Line up a good plumber (has to be licensed for building dept), electrician (ditto on license) and rely on handymen to do the rest (installing cabs, tiling, demo, etc). Willing to talk further with you if you provide your contact info.
Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:02 PM
There's so much bs spouted on this site that I feel sorry for OP...100k on a kitchen (or 300k on a floor) is *stratospheric* and in no way reflects normalcy. I spent 15k including plumbing on an (Ikea) kitchen, and we redid out bath for less than 10k, so if you want to be profligate and install gold faucets of course you can spend a lot.
It's tiring to hear of the "gut renovators" who claim to be on a "tight budget", but have 250k to spend. Do it by all means, but don't expect to be soothed. That's a lot. There's not much excuse to "gut renovate" a place you claim is in "decent shape", but if you want to smash-and-destroy, that seems to be the norm.
As an example, I was quoted 45k for a deck by the architect-recommended contractor, finally went with Sketch and Hammer for 14k. We got handymen to do much of our work at a quarter the prices you've been quoted.
Moving walls is no big deal in brownstones as they're mostly non-load-bearing. Sensitive renovation should be the goal. You'll save a Lot of money as well.
Posted by: cmu at February 13, 2008 9:32 PM
to cmu
did you do the kitchen and bathroom renovation yourselves or did you use a contractor?
If you did the work with professionals, please share their names and phone numbers;
I have similiar work to do.
thank you
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 13, 2008 10:20 PM
Using handymen to do work in your house is a great way to find out about the workman's comp law -- the hard way. Make sure EVERYONE is insured and provides certificates or get yourself insured as a GC.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 9:16 AM
Hmm, to 9:16,I wonder why there are all those handyman ads then? Are you saying that employing a local painter is a risk? We're not talking structural here. And no co-op board approval.
To OP: Kitchen: contractor (unfortunately the one I woud NOT recommend) who brought plumber/elect. New plumbing from floor below. Assembled IKEA cabinets myself, but cont. installed. New soffit for hood vent, and 4 electric lines from basement. About 15-18k. Kitchen was on brownstoner, the "cheap" one.
Bath: remove all tile, new cement board backer in tub/shower, new tile, new floor tile, sink and faucets replaced. Saved some by keeping tile to tub only, more of a CA aesthetic which we like anyway. replaced 2 bath doors. About 10k (happy to recommend them, they're actually off-work construction workers.)
Bamboo flooring on one floor (Verrazano) 6k; and replace all trim (wood) (except plaster crown), replace 2 doors, smooth out wall imperfections, paint, same guys as bath: 10k. Etc.
Now I am not comparing this to serious structual renovation, but clearly you can do a lot for a reasonable amount. Pouring an additional 50k into that floor would have resulted in picture-perfect molding and glass-smooth walls, but I don't have the money and, indeed, I would be embarassed to spend that much. Not do I like perfection, find it boring.
Posted by: cmu at February 14, 2008 9:44 AM
I'd love to get the names/numbers of your guys--we're doing exactly this kind of rehab and totally agree with your reno logic.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:18 PM
I'm the OP, and when I say the place is in decent shape, I just mean that the inspection said it was in "fair" condition - not a total gut job. We're not into smash and destroy for the sake of it, and it's not like $200-250K is chump change for us - in fact, it will basically wipe out our nest egg - but everyone seems to tell me that it is totally unrealistic to renovate 2 floors for less than that. The reason we have to gut the parlor floor is that the current owner lives in a warren of tiny rooms - tiny bedroom, weird middle section with fugly closets on either side (with rolling doors) and tiny front office. There's no point in spending over $1million for a house and then having to live in that kind of cramped setting since our current apt (which is alas too small) would then be a much better living situation. Also, do people find they can get good quality materials "off the shelf"?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:00 PM
We did a complete gut rennovation of a brownstone in Bedstuy for $75psf (hard costs). Obviously its Bedstuy so doing anything high end would be overinvesting in the house. As an architect I've also worked on $500psf renovations. You can do plenty for $200psf. Not everything but a lot. If you set your budget your architect should meet it. Or at least at the end it should come down to you making choices to leave in items for additional money over that budget or not.
I'm happy to help or advise if you like. tbraude at gmail dot com
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:01 PM
It's been over a year but Randy Well's # is 646-2567454. He and partner Nick did much of our work, including some built-in bookshelves. you can tell him Chandru recommended them. Caveats: need to keep track, they might make decisions you don't agree with, but for us we were in the house while work was going on, so no problem. Workmanship is good. Easy to deal with. But not too available, so timing may be an issue.
OP: don't get your question about off the shelf, I'd think most all material was all off the shelf unless it's something like cabinets and shower enclosures or something.
Posted by: cmu at February 14, 2008 4:08 PM
I don't think price per square foot is the relevant metric for renovation costs. We did a fairly extensive (and somewhat high-end) renovation on our house -- new electrical throughout, a new bathroom with a new hot water riser, lots of wood trim and doors stripped and stained, all interior walls repainted -- and in the end spent around $75 per square foot (now that I price it out; it never occurred to me to budget it that way). But half of our basement is unfinished and we left it that way. Without that factored in, it was still less than $100 psf.
But we also had estimates all over the map before we started. in any case none of the contractors who bid on our job thought in terms of overall square feet. it was a matter of pricing out the subcontractors for each part of the renovation. in the end, we ended up going with the highest bidder because he seemed the most honest, and it was the right call; we spent just a bit more than his estimate, but that was due to change orders that we pre-approved. and the place looks great.
the only way to get a real handle on the cost is to get a number of competitive bids (at least three, more if you have time) and then look at where the price is averaging out. also compare the costs of the individual subcontractors in each case -- if one sub comes in much higher than the others, tell the contractor about the rival bids and ask what he can do to lower costs. also beware of very low bidders, since they often bid low just to get the job and then the costs pile up once you're in the middle of the job.
Good luck!
Posted by: Vanderman at February 14, 2008 4:27 PM
4:01..."Obviously its Bedstuy so doing anything high end would be overinvesting in the house"
Why did you buy in Bedstuy to begin with? Why not look for a smaller brownstone in Park slope and pay $3.5m for it and go high end.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:07 PM
Nearly all of the materials we used were "off the shelf" as well. It depends on what shelf you're talking about.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 15, 2008 8:32 AM
Hello 6:07, I had the same reaction to that statement that "obviously, in BedStuy high-end would be overinvestment." It made my hackles go up. I am renovating a house in BedStuy and do not feel that anything I do is "over" investing. It is a beautiful neighborhood, with lovely houses and good neighbors. I am thrilled to be in BedStuy.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:32 PM
if you are renovating in bedstuy and you put in a subzero fridge you are over investing. its just common sense. it has nothing to do with the neighborhood which is great. you will never get that investment back when you sell. if you are renovating in park slope it makes sense to put in those kind of high end appliances because when you sell a brownstone for $3m instead of $1m people are looking for that level of finishes, etc.
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 12:47 PM
agree. bedstuy be for them that can't afford park slope.
Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 8:44 PM
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