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February 14, 2008
Cold apartment
Since December I’ve been calling my landlord and telling her the apartment is too cold. It ranges from 65 to 68 degrees during the day and 63 degrees at night. We live on the top floor of a brownstone. It’s a two-bedroom apartment with only two radiators; one in the kitchen and one in the larger bedroom. The second bedroom has no heating source. The heat does work but it is very weak. Only the top of the radiator gets warm, the bottom half never heats up. Before any of you landlord’s chime in with your “68 is warm enough” imagine waking up freezing at 3am and unable to get warm. It’s not a lot of fun.
As of yet my landlord’s one and only response is “I’ll take a look at it” but nothing ever changes. The boiler looks ancient but other apartments in the building are heated fine (in fact the apartment on the ground floor has turned one of their radiator’s off and opened their windows). So, my question is; is it the radiators? Can they be replaced? I think they are full of decades worth of gunk but I’ve read they can’t be bled. It’s one of those boilers where you have to turn a water valve to keep it full and working. I know it leaks because every couple of weeks it gets empty and the heat goes off in the entire building. I know the landlord is concerned about having any contractors or inspectors in because the building hasn’t been inspected since 1986 (I know this because that was the last time an inspector signed the building certificate posted in the hallway). She’s also done lots of hidden construction (turning one apartment into two, closing off doorways) which would cause some problems too. She’s not a bad person but I don’t think she knows what she’s doing when it comes to the heat (if, in fact, she’s doing anything besides giving me lip service and taking my $2700 every month).
Comments
first, 68 IS warm enough according to NYC laws.
if you are concerned, take a readout in the bedroom w/o and radiators, and see what the temp is.
if your cold bottom, hot top radiator broken? is your shutoff open ALL the way? is it leaking? does your air/vapor equalizing valve work? is it painted shut?
still pissed off? call 311, thats why NYC residents pay so much TAX
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:23 PM
It sounds like you have more issues with your landlord than the heat. Why not find another apartment if you aren't happy there?
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at February 14, 2008 4:27 PM
I think the city regs are that it only has to be heated to 55 at night so you're out of luck.
However, if she's split an apartment into 2 and closed off doorways, I'd call the fire department ASAP and open the door to let their inspector in. Illegal apartments of that sort can be deadly.
I live in a co-op and know that we have to have the boiler inspected annually. Wouldn't your brownstone need the same type of inspection if it has at least 3 apartments which you imply? Call 311 about that too.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:34 PM
If it is really such a problem, why not buy a $35 electric radiator. I use one in my bedroom at night because my very large condo has central heat and we dont want to pay to heat the whole condo while we sleep.
It works great and keeps the large room (16 X 14)very warm and even has a thermostat so we can set it to whatever temp we want.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:46 PM
I'll bet there are air vents on the tops of your radiators and not in the lower half where they belong.
That's a common error when installing steam radiators as opposed to hot water radiators.
That would account for the condition you've described.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at February 14, 2008 5:00 PM
The limit for the evening hours is 55 but during the daytime it's 68, so if it is falling below that, she's in violation at $250 a day until the problem is corrected. Moreover, the city will come to inspect your apartment and could fine her for any other potential violations. All you have to do is call 311. I think the fact that the second bedroom has no heat source is a violation and will they'll make your landlord provide a heat source at great expense.
On the other hand, you risk pissing off your landlord and she might not renew your lease. Do you like your apartment and want to stay? Do you want to get into a war with your landlord? If you call the city, you should repost and say what happens, it will be interesting to hear.
Posted by: Brooklynnative at February 14, 2008 6:01 PM
I'm not a landlord [I have a single-family brownstone] but I do think that 68 is plenty warm--too warm for me personally. I keep my house at 65 day, 55 at night and am very uncomfortable with higher temperatures.
It's WINTER--it's supposed to be cold! Why be such a wus? Wear a sweater and get a good quilt for your bed--it's healthier and better for the environment.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 14, 2008 6:10 PM
Every brownstone I ever lived in was freezing on the top floor, especially in the back half. (When I lived in top floor apartment, and again, when I lived in duplex of 3/4 floors - 4th MUCH colder. And in my 4 unit coop, where, luckily, I wasn't on the 4th floor.)
I always figured that the trade off for having the better light amd views, and no one above me, was having little to no heat.
That said, I knew someone with the same problem whose problem went away once the landlord replaced the ancient boiler.
So, I think it is usually a boiler problem (boiler was ancient in all the buildings I lived in noted above.) Maybe they did things to fix the radiators at the same time they replaced the boiler - I don't know.
There are those who say you can improve the heat by messing the the radiators - bleeding them if they are the kind that can be bled (steam or hot water, I forget which kind you bleed) - but that never worked when my landlord bled them every year. And, for the other kind (steam or hot water - the kind you don't bleed), they say there are different sized thermostatic valves (those little hat-like things that stick out from the side near the top that let off hot steam/water all over your wall and your stuff when the water levels are off) that can be put on the radiators on each floor in order to balance the heat better on the 4 floors. Try looking into that.
Though it is hard when you are a renter. It seems landlords just don't care. And my take is usually that you are better able to get their cooperation if you first try to find a solution and get that implemented (try talking to a plumber about the different valves if you have the kind of radiators that have them - its the steam or the hot water - one is bled, one has valves - I forget which) before calling 311 - as the city standards for heat are not really comfortably high for your average drafty-windowed, uninsulated brownstone top floor.
Short term, I'd (1) get one of those oil-filled electric radiators for the bedroom (yes, it sucks that your electricity bill will go up); (2) use weather stripping around your windows (ugly, but it helps) and (3) get window coverings that will keep whatever heat you do have in (like honeycomb shades or heavy curtains - it helps, though it sucks to spend a lot for those big windows if you aren't staying for long.)
Now, renting a really beautiful apartment, top floor of a large building from apartment owner (not a rental building). Some previous landlord/owner removed radiators in my living room and bedroom, and the window in my bedroom leaves a 1/2" gap between the window and the frame - so it is drafty, though stuffed by me with window AC foam. Heavy curtains (which I need to block light at night anyway) help. As does having bought a second! down quilt to put over the first one I already had. As does sleeping with a wool sweater over my pajamas, and a wool hat when necessary. Have considered buying an electric radiator. Ultimately, every apartment requires trade-offs. Happy now with my light, views, space and rent - but look forward to having heat, too, when I buy again.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:18 PM
Go to housing court and file an hp (housing part) proceeding, if you
are broke the filing is free.
If you have income it is about $35 for the filing.
You do not need a private attorney, the city automatically represents your interest for free no matter your income.
While you are at it list the whole kettle of fish.
In other words list everything wrong with the apartment. You get one shot. It makes your case stronger.
The court will help you fill out the papers for free and they will let you know the exact date the court appointed inspector will be out to verify and write it all up.
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 7:42 PM
Go to housing court and file an hp (housing part) proceeding, if you
are broke the filing is free.
If you have income it is about $35 for the filing.
You do not need a private attorney, the city automatically represents your interest for free no matter your income.
While you are at it list the whole kettle of fish.
In other words list everything wrong with the apartment. You get one shot. It makes your case stronger.
The court will help you fill out the papers for free and they will let you know the exact date the court appointed inspector will be out to verify and write it all up.
It doesn't matter what type of housing.
Rent stabilized or market rate apartment, condo, etc.
The law is the law
Yes, I am a landlord and keep everything in working order for my tenants especially the heat.
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 7:46 PM
If the landlord is not happy about you filing an offiicial complaint
and starts harrassing you.
Go back to court and state *retaliation*. Owner might have to pay fine in addition to paying for all your repairs under the law.
No, you don't have to move either way.
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 7:53 PM
Be careful with electric heaters.
Don't use them..
You might start a fire accidently.
The building sounds very old and it might be wired badly.
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 8:00 PM
Space heater and illegal apartments = death in a fire.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 8:04 PM
Sorry about my original duplicate responses.
My computer is out of whack.
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 8:10 PM
Let's get back to OP's original complaint: the apartment is 65 - 68 during the day, 63 at night.
NYC law stipulates 68 during the day, 55 at night.
Ysabelle, YOU are out of whack (charming that you blame your computer, though). OP should file what at housing court? That the apartment is sometimes 2 degrees cooler than it should be during the day (and 8 degrees warmer than required at night)? Seems like a lot of hassle for an occassional 2 degrees.
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at February 14, 2008 8:28 PM
Right 68 and 55. It's cold but that is the NYC requirement. I would freeze with that and my tenants are the beneficiaries. Find an owner occupied brownstone. In the meantime, get a heater and an electric blanket. I lived through one of the coldest winters on record in NYC in a beach house with no central heat (just one natural gas unit) and got a wonderful night sleep with an electric blanket and also had heaters.
Posted by: donatella at February 14, 2008 8:37 PM
To curiousitykilledthecat.....
The heating dilemma is not about us or the op for that matter.
It is about the thermometer the city provides for their inspectors to do the reading.
Everything else is irrelevant.
Remember this, bureaucracy is just that.
The city is Dumbass about everything
I wouldn't be suprised if they went there with a busted thermometer.
Please don't tell me to stick the thermometer where the *sun don't shine*.
Enuf said!
Posted by: Ysabelle at February 14, 2008 8:49 PM
The problem with going to housing court is that future landlords have every right not to rent to someone who has taken a landlord to housing court. That stuff is a matter of public record--I always make sure I am not renting to someone with a housing court history.
If the OP wants to have trouble renting in NYC in the future, then she should go directly to housing court over three freaking degrees.
It's three degrees, and your landlord has the right to keep your place much colder at night than he does. I think it's important to know when to fight. This does not seem like one of those times.
I would buy myself a nice sweater or two and stop worrying about it. He's so close to being within the law that it just makes you look bad to fight it.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 7:43 AM
As a landlord, I disagree with some of the postings above. If you are paying $2,700 for one floor of a brownstone, you deserve decent heat, and not the "minimum". And if you are politely telling your landlord that you are freezing, she should be doing something about it.
We charge our tenants slightly below market and try to keep them reasonably happy. If their apartment was freezing, we would do something about it. You seem to be paying market rent (where is your apartment?) So if your landlord is not giving you any break in rent, she deserves to provide you with decent services. Otherwise, you should definitely look for a new place to live, and let the landlord live with the hassle of always having unhappy tenants paying high rents for bad service.
The advice to get a heater is wrong -- they really are a fire hazard. I would hate to have my tenants having to use them and would far prefer having the heat fixed.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:54 AM
I own a 2 family brownstone, and rent out an apartment, where it's always much colder than in mine. Our furnace works well, but the system was just not designed well, and the rental apt is always cosiderably cooler than the rest of the house.
I explained that to my tenants on their first winter, when they complained that they were cold. I have to admit, first I couldn't believe them, since it was very pleasant in my part of the house. Eventually I came to realise that the heating set up was not right and couldn't be changed easily, so I bought them a portable radiator (electric) with a built in timer and reduced their rent by $40 a month. They are happy now and so I am.
You may want to try that - if the problem is in the design (in my opinion, very likely since so many are and 2 radiators only for a whole 2 bedroom hardly sounds enough) it may be really costly to rectify, so your landlord may not be willing to go that route. But if she understands your legitimate discomfort she may be willing to help you in ways that are not painlful for her.
Having said that, if you think the changes she did in the house grant an inspection I think you have the ethical obligation to report it. If someone where to die (not uncommon if there is a fire and the fire dept doesn't have up to date details of the inside of the building and areas have been closed off) what would you think/feel?
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:22 PM
I skimmed through the posts and not sure anyone mentioned old drafty windows. If the windows are drafty, tell the landlord, but b/c she doesn't sound too eager to fix anything you'll end up having to hang some heavy curtains in front of the windows. It really does help warm up a room to block the drafts from the windows. Give it a try.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 5:49 PM
I am a landlord and we have the heat up to 77 and sometimes have to crank it up to 80. Now, am sure you are all in shock - but its a verrrry drafty house, one in which I should have had insulated last year. anyway, i am charging my tenant $2500 a month for a duplex! When he calls and complains he's cold - I put up the heat. Sorry, I disagree with keeping the heat at the mininum. Yes, my gas prices are high, but at least I am not causing an issue for my tenant to complain that he's got a slumlord.
my advice, find a new place
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:42 PM
It has been suggested that not wearing season-appropriate clothing can be confusing and depressing for people - that it is therefore not only responsible but healthy to wear sweaters in winter and short sleeves in summer, for example. So, I suggest lots of layers, a good quilt, and some hot lovin' with Bob "Tough Love" Marvin. Yum!
Posted by: guest at February 18, 2008 8:04 PM
I'd love to see what the heat is like in the apartments of these people who say 55 is fine at night...somehow I bet it's warmer in their houses. I call hypocrite.
Posted by: guest at February 19, 2008 11:36 AM
I didn't say 55 was fine, just that it's the law. I was responding to the suggestion that OP take the landlord to housing court, and was pointing out that the landlord wasn't doing anything to warrant housing court (at least with regard to the temperature). Have a nice day!
Posted by: curiositykilledthecat at February 19, 2008 11:48 AM
Honestly, I am living in a house with no heat right now, and it's not that bad. It never gets to be truly freezing because I've got houses on either side of me. I put on a sweater and have a space heater for cold days.
I definitely get up and it's 55 degrees most mornings. I thought this would make me really crabby all winter. But you know? You get used to it.
I think I am going to rethink using my heat once I get it, and use it much more sparingly than I used to. I think I prefer not paying for heat to having heat.
Posted by: guest at February 19, 2008 4:52 PM
68 wouldn't be terrible if you were paying the bills, but the important thing is that for 2700 per month, you should be able to find a place that suits you in most ways. unfortunately, that could mean moving. i haven't read all of your post, but if you are not rent protected, calling inspector's is a good way to not have your lease renewed. also bear in mind, that if your situation is easily solved with a space heater or dressing warm, using 311 and city services unnecessarily does wrongly affect those truly in need. it is not always likely that someone will overheat a whole building to satisfy 1 area, especially when people are dying over oil. i hope you find a good soloution, and take advice from people who can countenance the entire situation and not give rash advice that may not be in your or anyone's best interest. in the end, you probably can't force your landlord to do anything, maybe you can motivate them, but its a good idea for us all to first consider that going to war, or even moving in that direction, is not always the first option to take.
Posted by: brownstone89 at March 18, 2008 9:56 PM
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